View Poll Results: Will America Collapse?

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  • No, we are too strong

    10 23.26%
  • Yes, but far in the future

    11 25.58%
  • Yes, and it will be sooner than later

    13 30.23%
  • I don't know but I slept at a Holiday Inn last night

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Thread: The Five Stages of Collapse

  1. #41
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    Re: The Five Stages of Collapse

    obviously these are tumultuous times to say the least. however a newscast I saw last week with a British correspondent mentioned that, as bad as it is in America right now, we are still better off than the rest of the world. Although i have nothing to back this claim up

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    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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    Re: The Five Stages of Collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    China's people are not as poor as you may think. Sure, the rural areas are still light-years behind the cities, but it is growing rapidly.

    This article from 2006 comments on the rapidly growing consumerism in China.
    Interesting notion, yet the facts paint a far different picture of a totalitarian Communist Government that allows limited capitalism to occur under careful controls in order to keep it's economy from collapsing:

    China's national per capita income reaches $1,740(08/18/06)

    China's national per capita income reaches $1,740(08/18/06)

    Versus Taiwan’s which is $13,982 and the US which is number one at $19,766?

    List of countries by per capita personal income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    By any comparison, China is all third world and cannot hope to achieve much more than that under its current Communist rule. The only thing that has raised China's standings was their takeover of Hong Kong which like Taiwan was a capitalist enclave of freedom and choice.

    The notion that China which ranks below most South American countries as being anything less than poor is amusing at best.

    One must imagine what China would be like if it were a Democracy like Japan and Taiwan that allows it’s citizens freedom and civil rights. Japan, Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea all do far better than China with a tiny fraction of China's resources. Why do you think that is?

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    Re: The Five Stages of Collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeJayH View Post
    obviously these are tumultuous times to say the least. however a newscast I saw last week with a British correspondent mentioned that, as bad as it is in America right now, we are still better off than the rest of the world. Although i have nothing to back this claim up
    That is a factual statement and easy to back up. No need to attempt to unless someone who wants to avoid that reality wants to prove it wrong.

  4. #44
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    Re: The Five Stages of Collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Actually it does. If America experienced the kind of near apocalyptic decline he's talking about the number of people who would survive it would be so minuscule they'd probably just die off from old age and that's a very generous estimate. Think about it for a minute. What percentage of the American populace hunts for it's food? What percentage of the American populace relies on vehicles whenever it wants to go hunting? Getting food? Necessities? Say what you will but this wet dream so many gun owners have that if the world ends they'll survive is destroyed the moment they drive into wal-mart to pick up their holiday chickens. Very few will make it and knowing how to hunt will make a very small difference if it ever comes to down to it.
    Hopefully we can pray some up! :p
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    Re: The Five Stages of Collapse

    Actually it does. If America experienced the kind of near apocalyptic decline he's talking about the number of people who would survive it would be so minuscule they'd probably just die off from old age and that's a very generous estimate.
    Well... I've heard estimates that if the crash ends up like the great depression, that you could expect to see about half the american population die of starvation.

    There will be riots and potentially revolution over this... but the government is prepared... there are Federal Emergency Management camps, many of them staffed and waiting for 'campers'. There are the 'coffin collections'... piles of plastic coffins that can hold 3-4 people each numbering in the hundreds of thousands, there's the 'PATRIOT ACT which still does say that 'ANY FEDERAL OR STSATE CRIME (even misdemeanors) are demestic terrorism.

    The SPP has been ratified for YEARS now, so on paper, Canada, US, and Mexico share a common border, so there's no escape.


    Think about it for a minute. What percentage of the American populace hunts for it's food? What percentage of the American populace relies on vehicles whenever it wants to go hunting? Getting food? Necessities?
    The great depression saw how many millions die of starvation?? Yet, back in the 30's approximately 80% of the people were completely self-suficient... now, 80% of people are 2 paychecks from being bankrupt.

    Those that do have guns, and the means to go hunting will definately be better off than someone stuck in the city... if things get bad, it might be a good idea to get out of the cities, cause that's where the chaos will be the greatest.

    However, even someone that has a stockpile of food, and weapons will be better off cause he can bide his time to get out of dodge...

    You can expect martial law to be declared however....

    I dunno... There is so much potential for so many different possibilities... and if it's ALL unleashed.... we could very well be facing a holocaust in america.

    Say what you will but this wet dream so many gun owners have that if the world ends they'll survive is destroyed the moment they drive into wal-mart to pick up their holiday chickens. Very few will make it and knowing how to hunt will make a very small difference if it ever comes to down to it.
    Put it this way.... those that can endure the most discomfort will pull through... many others will perish or fall into a life of crime to survive... and especially if martial law is declared, you could expect to have a LOT of shooting going on in the streets.

  6. #46
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    Re: The Five Stages of Collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Clearly there is a collapse, its ongoing, its broad and unpredictable, most people havent started noticing yet because the collapse isnt far enough in development for them to notice, when they do notice then the collapse is in the end phase.

    Now we see decline in intellectualism, hyperdecline in politics and government, financial market collapse, and I think the economic collapse will soon be very broad, once the paper economy is gone there is not much left, except in this case far superior housing than soviet had, which will make the collapse less drastic, but even so change the life of everyone when they loose what they were used to.

    Typical for decline is denial and a wish to get back to where you wore before, this is clearly taking place in the US now and leading to further decline. The US is in decline, collapse may come or may not, civil war could break out between central and southern US against the rest and then full fledged civil wars that could lead to the break away of states from the federation and create multiple independent nations.

    Exciting subject really, my knowledge on it is quite limited but these are some of the things I find most interesting about what could potentially take place. Would anyone mind if the Northeast broke away? That California becomes a nation? That some dusin southern states create the confederation they always wanted and that the rest sporadically cooperate with each other to avoid this.



    edit. i didnt read the content of the link until after my post, but it seems quite clear to me that stage 4 is what is unfolding now and that the first 3 have happened and are still happening.
    Somehow you seem too eager for the collapse of the US, but be careful what you wish for because you may get it as well. Your economic system is no different from ours, and your governments are at least as corrupt; you just don't make the news here. Europe is not clean as the wind driven snow, and Scandinavia only does well because no one is threaten them. You are not threaten because of us and the rest of Europe, not because you have overwhelming power. You need to be more humble and less cocky.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)

  7. #47
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    Re: The Five Stages of Collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Somehow you seem too eager for the collapse of the US, but be careful what you wish for because you may get it as well. Your economic system is no different from ours, and your governments are at least as corrupt; you just don't make the news here. Europe is not clean as the wind driven snow, and Scandinavia only does well because no one is threaten them. You are not threaten because of us and the rest of Europe, not because you have overwhelming power. You need to be more humble and less cocky.
    I am not eager for the collapse of the US.. But when you do not see your own collapse coming, it will be impossible to prevent it. I am eager to warn, and I want you to avoid collapse.

    Broadly I believe in the collapse of the capitalist economic model and the failure of democracy as we know it today. And such a collapse can either cause a huge collapse in both the US and Europe, or it can be changed with reforms. In addition for the US, there are several other things that in addition to those valid for Europe, also can bring about a collapse, increased extremism and polarization, a stagnative society in relative decline, lack of clear direction, militarism as a solution to problems not understood, suppressive almost fascist government, political problems and so fourth.

    Seeing what is going on in the world and especially in the US, it would NOT surprise me if the US actually do collapse, nor would a second US civil war surprise me.
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  8. #48
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    Re: The Five Stages of Collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Interesting notion, yet the facts paint a far different picture of a totalitarian Communist Government that allows limited capitalism to occur under careful controls in order to keep it's economy from collapsing:

    China's national per capita income reaches $1,740(08/18/06)

    China's national per capita income reaches $1,740(08/18/06)

    Versus Taiwan’s which is $13,982 and the US which is number one at $19,766?

    List of countries by per capita personal income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    By any comparison, China is all third world and cannot hope to achieve much more than that under its current Communist rule. The only thing that has raised China's standings was their takeover of Hong Kong which like Taiwan was a capitalist enclave of freedom and choice.

    The notion that China which ranks below most South American countries as being anything less than poor is amusing at best.

    One must imagine what China would be like if it were a Democracy like Japan and Taiwan that allows it’s citizens freedom and civil rights. Japan, Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea all do far better than China with a tiny fraction of China's resources. Why do you think that is?
    There are a few key flaws in your analysis, and none of them have to do with what type of government rules in Beijing:

    1) China only opened itself to capitalism, via the Special Economic Zones, in the 1980's. Its capitalism is new, and thus its growth is new.

    2) China's annual growth rate is higher than any nation in the world, at 11.5% annually before the economic downturn, and is predicted to remain at approx. 7.5% through to the end of 2009 (and that is considered a 19 year low!). It has enough internal momentum to sustain large gains as its market is based on real assets.

    3) China's GDP is 24 trillion RMB which equates to approximately $3.5 trillion USD annually. That is nothing to scough at for a "third world" nation.

    4) The per capita GDP that you have provided calculations for is based on population alone. Of course China's will be less, it has a billion and a half people!

    Additionally, your assessment of its command economy is flawed. China, for all intents and purposes, is now a capitalist economy with free enterprise. The government controls very little in terms of business expansion and investment. The Communists largely continue to control social policy in order to prevent the capitalist flow of profit from being disrupted. That is the modern China, and not the one you have described.
    Last edited by Orion; 03-10-09 at 06:54 AM.

  9. #49
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    Re: The Five Stages of Collapse

    What do you mean by "collapse"? That America will become some sort of high tech Somalia, gun enthusiasts defending their refrigerators with Armalites?

  10. #50
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    Re: The Five Stages of Collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    There are a few key flaws in your analysis, and none of them have to do with what type of government rules in Beijing:

    1) China only opened itself to capitalism, via the Special Economic Zones, in the 1980's. Its capitalism is new, and thus its growth is new.

    2) China's annual growth rate is higher than any nation in the world, at 11.5% annually before the economic downturn, and is predicted to remain at approx. 7.5% through to the end of 2009 (and that is considered a 19 year low!). It has enough internal momentum to sustain large gains as its market is based on real assets.

    3) China's GDP is 24 trillion RMB which equates to approximately $3.5 trillion USD annually. That is nothing to scough at for a "third world" nation.

    4) The per capita GDP that you have provided calculations for is based on population alone. Of course China's will be less, it has a billion and a half people!

    Additionally, your assessment of its command economy is flawed. China, for all intents and purposes, is now a capitalist economy with free enterprise. The government controls very little in terms of business expansion and investment. The Communists largely continue to control social policy in order to prevent the capitalist flow of profit from being disrupted. That is the modern China, and not the one you have described.
    China's Per Capita Income (PPP) is $6,100 and real growth rate is 9.8%.

    In developed areas its Per Capita Income is far higher than that.

    To put it into perspective, India's Per Capita Income is only $2,900.

    You are correct, for all intents and purposes China has a market economy. In many ways its one of the most business friendly environments on earth because of the amount of cooperation companies get from the government there at local and national levels.

    Citizens actually have a large amount of freedom in China now with the exception of openly criticizing their government (which is a big limitation on liberty). Having traveled there I can say that people in China go about their lives pretty much just like people here do.

    Let me point out one other thing. A lot of people on here that represent the far right seem to be remarkably ignorant of the history of communism. Nation's do not gradually embrace communism. Liberalism does not lead to communism. In fact, communist regimes have always despised liberals because of their advocacy for civil liberties. Communism almost always follows extreme right wing regimes and comes about as a result of a revolt. If you don't want communism, then you should guard against extreme concentrations of wealth because that is what makes communism appeal to the masses. Communism comes about as a reaction against extreme right wing and or feudalistic regimes, not as a natural progression of liberalism.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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