View Poll Results: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

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  • It wont

    44 84.62%
  • It'll make me want to divorce my partner

    8 15.38%
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Thread: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

  1. #251
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Yes that is one of the biggest purposes of marriage as well as its place at the core of the family an important intermediate association between the state and the individual.

    However as I said one must try and avoid naked functionalism. The ideological and tradition ideas behind marriage are very important because men do not live by function alone as important as it is. We must take care to preserve the fabric of ideational factors that partly make up marriage in our society as well as the functional ones and therefore change it cautiously and with the maximum amount of continuity with the old beliefs.
    Sorry. I don't buy that all tradition is sacred. You thoughts on this are opinion, not fact.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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  2. #252
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Sorry. I don't buy that all tradition is sacred. You thoughts on this are opinion, not fact.
    Not what I said far from it, that is a massive strawman.

    Tradition is simply the recognition of the complexity of society and the limits of the individual comprehension of society and the limits of individual faculties.

    Your individual reason is limited and not a good judge for an entire society to be based on.

    All I'm maintaining is that marriage while important for functional reasons is not supported by these alone and contains many ideational elements which can have latent functions and consequences we can't readily comprehend hence any change should be cautious and aim at continuity with the past.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  3. #253
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Not what I said far from it, that is a massive strawman.
    Not a strawman at all. You mentioned tradition, I spoke in generalities, not in absolutes.

    Tradition is simply the recognition of the complexity of society and the limits of the individual comprehension of society and the limits of individual faculties.
    Tradition is a behavior or belief or set of customs that have been passed down from generation to generation. Traditions do not always ring true as time passes and often become obsolete.

    Your individual reason is limited and not a good judge for an entire society to be based on.
    What individual reason is that?

    All I'm maintaining is that marriage while important for functional reasons is not supported by these alone and contains many ideational elements which can have latent functions and consequences we can't readily comprehend hence any change should be cautious and aim at continuity with the past.
    And I'm not saying anything different. Except that continuity with the past is not more important than recognizing different needs for the present.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #254
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Not a strawman at all. You mentioned tradition, I spoke in generalities, not in absolutes.
    I was refering to the way that the functionalism of marriage was being talked about without recognising that men and society don't operate on naked functionalism alone.

    Tradition is a behavior or belief or set of customs that have been passed down from generation to generation. Traditions do not always ring true as time passes and often become obsolete.
    Indeed however society is extremely complex and institutions can have latent functions and their removal can have unintended consequences because the individual's reasons or even the reason of an entire generation cannot comprehend or know all the interdepedencies and interactions of society. Therefore one must be very careful in changing things, it must be done piecemeal and with a deep spirit of veneration for and continuity with the past.



    What individual reason is that?
    As in your rationality, your ability to cognise the entire fabric of society with all its interactions and tangles of ideas, functions, roles, statuses, institutions, associations, authorities and so on.

    And I'm not saying anything different. Except that continuity with the past is not more important than recognizing different needs for the present.
    Yes but keeping that continuity is a good way to try and create change while keeping as much of society that we don't want t change in tact.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 12-06-08 at 09:17 PM.
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  5. #255
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I wasn't suggesting that, I support gay marriage cautiously.

    One important conservative plank is too know society is so complex that we can't know what might go wrong if we do not stress continuity and are not cautious.
    I agree with you here. Also, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar", and one who knew this was MLK. When trying to upset the apple-cart, do it with a smile and with grace. This way they don't know what hit them.
    "It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens." Woody Allen.

  6. #256
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Courtesy
    Firstly, this is not made up, it is one of the purposes that government supports and encourages marriage.
    While it can be argued to be one of many supposed purposes, it is not, by far, the only purpose, nor even the most important. Heterosexuals are not barred from marriage if they do not have children, therefore it is not a legitimate reason to bar homosexuals from marriage.

    Secondly, you are still missing the point. I am not saying that this is the only reason government encourages marriage, nor am I saying that those who do not have children should not get married, or the government would prevent them from getting married. You are getting defensive for nothing. I am discussing the child-rearing position in the context of this discussion.
    Which is fine, but it seems to be irrelevant if it is not a position which would change whether or not someone should be able to get married. If you're going to propose a purpose which applies only to heterosexuals and homosexuals are inherently unable to fulfill, perhaps you might have a point, but so far, no one seems able to do that.
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    That is because institutions often have ideational factors beyond its function for society and these can be very important. Marriage helps to create children and to create the core of the important institution of the family but this kind of talk is not why the individual gets married, he does it mostly due to its ideational place within society as the cementment of love, union before god etc etc.
    Basically what you're saying is that people have individual biases based on their idealized expectations which may or may not have anything to do with reality.

    Sorry, that's not a rational way to run a nation.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  8. #258
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Sorry. I don't buy that all tradition is sacred. You thoughts on this are opinion, not fact.
    And whose thoughts are fact?
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  9. #259
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    And whose thoughts are fact?
    Mine of course.

    Seriously, it's about communication. When someone presents something in a factual way, when it is not, I feel it is my obligation, when I see it, to point it out.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #260
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Basically what you're saying is that people have individual biases based on their idealized expectations which may or may not have anything to do with reality.
    No what I'm saying is the place of an institution like marriage within any society does certainly have functional factors but it also has ideational ones which can have latent functions and whose removal may have unintended consequences hence caution and continuity should be stressed.
    Sorry, that's not a rational way to run a nation.
    A rational way? You claim to be slightly conservative and yet the politics of prescription which you decry is one of the most two or three key planks of conservatism. It is part of a general distrust of individual reason alone without the guide of prescription and tradition and the need for caution and continuity in reforming.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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