View Poll Results: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

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  • It wont

    44 84.62%
  • It'll make me want to divorce my partner

    8 15.38%
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Thread: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

  1. #161
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    I resent when people try to claim that the issues are completely parallel, finding it extremely offensive. perhaps you are unaware of the discrepancy since you are not here in the US, but I can assure you that the treatment of gays at its worst does not come close to the atrocities blacks have suffered in north america since the slave trade began. I specifically remember you making a claim before that blacks in CA are responsible now for the exact same discrimination they faced under the jim crow laws and under slavery, and I am asking you for a second time to brush up on your american history or simply choose another analogy to use in your argument.
    It isn't relevant whether or not homophobia IN GENERAL compares to the atrocities that blacks have faced IN GENERAL. The analogy was between GAY MARRIAGE and INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE. Those two things ARE largely comparable, as the arguments for preventing them (and for allowing them) are virtually identical.
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It isn't relevant whether or not homophobia IN GENERAL compares to the atrocities that blacks have faced IN GENERAL. The analogy was between GAY MARRIAGE and INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE. Those two things ARE largely comparable, as the arguments for preventing them (and for allowing them) are virtually identical.
    Like Transexuality and Gender Identity Disorder, born-homosexuality is a biological error. Race is not. Therefore gay marriage and interracial marriage are not comparable even if gays ever did suffer though anything even remotely close to Black slavery.

    Gay marriage = interracial marriage is fantastic hyperbole at best.

  3. #163
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Like Transexuality and Gender Identity Disorder, born-homosexuality is a biological error. Race is not. Therefore gay marriage and interracial marriage are not comparable even if gays ever did suffer though anything even remotely close to Black slavery.

    Gay marriage = interracial marriage is fantastic hyperbole at best.
    Why is it a "biological error"? Define "biological error" please. Furthermore, please explain why we should deny people basic rights even if they DO have a "biological error." Do we deny hemophiliacs the right to get married?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-04-08 at 05:46 AM.
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  4. #164
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eko Ren View Post
    That's sounded like a bunch of conjecture. On what grounds should a person be excluded from legal union aside citizenship?
    You're asking the wrong question. Again, the State extends numerous legal privileges to marriages that it recognizes, because it wants to encourage marriage; it has reasons for doing so, and thus the argument should focus on whether or not allowing homosexuals to marry helps serve those reasons.

    On what grounds should the legal definition of marriage be expanded to include homosexual marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eko Ren View Post
    A functional society wouldn't be so distracted with such nonsensical, petty questions. Children are allowed to marry in some states, for Godsakes. It really isn't that important a question, and it has far fewer implications than you're suggesting.
    This issue is neither nonsensical nor petty; in fact, I'd argue that the number of people who agree with you, that the institution of marriage is legally and societally trivial, is indicative of the exact kind of moral decline that Jerry is concerned with.

    The institution of marriage, in its role of cementing the bonds between families and lending legal, financial, and social stability to couples-- especially couples with children-- is the bedrock of society, and as it has crumbled in esteem, so have the moral values of society at large. The declining respect for marriage has led to broken homes, fatherless children, and three generations now of children who have grown up not understanding how vital it is for their own children to grow up in stable homes.

    I actually agree with you that marriage ought to be legalized for homosexuals-- but it is because marriage is so important, especially for parents, that I believe homosexuals ought to be included in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eko Ren View Post
    That is because incest is illegal in most states. Of course one cannot be legally bound illegally, wtf kind of argument was that?
    Actually, to my knowledge, it isn't illegal to have sex with your first cousins-- only to marry them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eko Ren View Post
    How is that relevant to gay marriage? Once again, this isn't because we necessarily want to exclude married people, but because bigamy is illegal.
    And in 47 States, so is gay marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eko Ren View Post
    Oh, a country can't legally bind and acknowledge the union of someone who isn't a citizen? GTFO! Dude. Honestly. That's like saying "We should make air illegal because attempting to breathe it underwater can kill you."
    In which case, people who are citizens of this country are denied the right to marry the consenting adult of their choice-- if that adult happens to be a citizen of a different country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eko Ren View Post
    Bold=100% false. The state imposes no limitations on marriage itself, but only nullifies it on the premise of oblique illegality.
    The State doesn't prohibit homosexuals from getting married, either-- it only refuses to recognize their marriage as legally binding. A friend of mine has been married twice, to two different women; thankfully, because of the law, she's been spared the indignity of divorce court both times.

    For that matter, the State does not prohibit plural marriages or cousin marriages, either; bigamy is only a criminal offense if you attempt to legally register the second marriage with the State, unless you live in Utah. (Utah will actually declare plural spouses commonlaw married in order to prosecute for bigamy.) So, if that's your argument, homosexuals aren't being denied the right to marry at all.

    Of course, I'd imagine that they see it differently, since they're still fighting for legal recognition of their marriages.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    A couple that can bear children? No, try again.
    Plenty of homosexuals have children, one way or another, and are raising them. That's the main reason I'm in favor of allowing them to marry.

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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Why is it a "biological error"?
    How am I supposed to know?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Define "biological error" please.
    An error of a biological nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Furthermore, please explain why we should deny people basic rights even if they DO have a "biological error."
    Gay marriage is not a basic right, so there is nothing to deny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Do we deny hemophiliacs the right to get married?
    I would support that, yes, for the exact same reason I oppose incest.

    1 of the 2 core purposes of marriage is to promote procreation if healthy children. Gays, hemophiliacs and familial couples cannot do this.

    And no, gay couples cannot reproduce any more than an infertile couple can. And yes, infertility is grounds for divorce.

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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Plenty of homosexuals have children, one way or another, and are raising them. That's the main reason I'm in favor of allowing them to marry.
    Yes and many brothers and sisters are raising children together, and plenty of daughters are raising children with their parents, so now you must logically allow incest and polygamy, and accept the sociological consequences of that.

    Marriage is the promotion of a particular way, not support for just whomever is doing it.
    Last edited by Jerry; 12-04-08 at 06:08 AM.

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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    1 of the 2 core purposes of marriage is to promote procreation if healthy children. Gays, hemophiliacs and familial couples cannot do this.
    There's actually very little risk of genetic defect between first cousins, unless one of them already has an expressed genetic disorder. It takes several generations of this before it's an issue that needs worried about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    And no, gay couples cannot reproduce any more than an infertile couple can. And yes, infertility is grounds for divorce.
    On the other hand, many infertile couples adopt children, just as many homosexual couples do. And it turns out that homosexuals are much more open-minded about raising children that are only biologically related to their significant other; men can "lie back and think of England" just as well as women, apparently.

  8. #168
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    This issue is neither nonsensical nor petty; in fact, I'd argue that the number of people who agree with you, that the institution of marriage is legally and societally trivial, is indicative of the exact kind of moral decline that Jerry is concerned with.

    The institution of marriage, in its role of cementing the bonds between families and lending legal, financial, and social stability to couples-- especially couples with children-- is the bedrock of society, and as it has crumbled in esteem, so have the moral values of society at large. The declining respect for marriage has led to broken homes, fatherless children, and three generations now of children who have grown up not understanding how vital it is for their own children to grow up in stable homes.

    I actually agree with you that marriage ought to be legalized for homosexuals-- but it is because marriage is so important, especially for parents, that I believe homosexuals ought to be included in it.
    You are entirely correct but one should also be careful of only using "naked functionalism" because it has a limited hold among the mass of mankind.

    It has been argued too that religion is important to society but if that were the only argument that permeated society in favour of it then it is unlikely to have much of an effect on the minds of individuals. As I read recently the family that prays together may stay to together but the family which prays to stay together is unlikely to do either for long.

    It is important therefore not to loose sight of the patchwork of beliefs that define the institution of marriage in our current society and remember they go far deeper than obvious function very often.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 12-04-08 at 06:18 AM.
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  9. #169
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Marriage is the promotion of a particular way, not support for just whomever is doing it.
    I think allowing homosexuals to marry each other, especially if they intend to raise children together, is preferable to requiring them to stay single or enter into marriages of convenience with opposite-sex partners.

    And of the 2 core purposes of marriage, homosexual marriage fulfills the other just as well as heterosexual marriage does.

  10. #170
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    Re: How will gay marriage affect your marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    There's actually very little risk of genetic defect between first cousins, unless one of them already has an expressed genetic disorder. It takes several generations of this before it's an issue that needs worried about.
    Allowing incest is allowing these generations to grow. No one said the problem was immediat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    On the other hand, many infertile couples adopt children, just as many homosexual couples do. And it turns out that homosexuals are much more open-minded about raising children that are only biologically related to their significant other; men can "lie back and think of England" just as well as women, apparently.
    In my experience with adoption and foster care, the "open-mindedness" you speak of is in no way exclusive to homosexual couples, but of any person who adopts a child not of close relation.

    If adopting children were the main gay marriage argument, you would hear little objection out of me, as the children would be placed first and the homosexuality would be merely incidental.

    But you know that is not the main argument. The main argument has nothing to do with putting children first, and everything to do with legitimizing a self identity. This is supposed to be accomplished in the teen years, not in adulthood and not through the courts.

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