View Poll Results: What's worse...

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  • European imperialism

    11 24.44%
  • Islamic imperialism

    15 33.33%
  • Both are roughly equivalent

    12 26.67%
  • Other - please specify

    7 15.56%
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Thread: What's worse European Imperialism or Islamic Imperialism?

  1. #131
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    Re: What's worse European Imperialism or Islamic Imperialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinghour
    The guy that was overthrown even wrote a book about it called “My War With the CIA”.
    lol you mean the Khymer Rouge ally prince Sihanouk who declared himself king for life and boldly proclaimed a "triumph for communism in SE Asia"? Now there's a reliable source. FYI the CIA didn't oust him his own national assembly did.

    I didn’t say it was a coup. Remember I said “coups and such”. Our actions there were unconstitutional anyway.
    How exactly were they unconstitutional?


    Yep no evidence that the U.S. funded, armed, or directed the coup plotters, rather there's only evidence that we backed opposition political parties and media outlets. FYI Pinochet was ordered by the Chilean Supreme Court and Chilean Chamber of Deputies to oust the communist tyrant Allende from power for his numerous violations of the Chilean Constitution in his attempts to destroy their republic and establish a totalitarian communist dictatorship.

    We occupied Haiti from 1915 to 1934.
    Well I seriously doubt the veracity of Aristides accusations.




    I don’t understand how you can say that the Family Jewels would cover all CIA coup operations, when that report only covers material from the 1950’s to the mid 70’s.
    Well all of the coups you mentioned fell into that time period.

    And besides that, I find it hard to believe that YOU would believe that the CIA disclosed every bad thing they did during the whole of their existence up to that point, and furthermore that they don’t do any bad things now.
    No they just released a bunch of nasty stuff that they did during that time period but just happened to keep all the stuff that you mentioned out of the disclosure just to help my argument.

    Just how much do you trust the government anyway? I suppose you think the 9/11 Commission Report is forthright and honest, too?
    no of course the 9-11 Commission is really a cover up and an anonymous quote by some French "journalist" and I use the term loosely, said so, even though he doesn't provide anything to back it up.


    What interests? The Constitution doesn’t allow for our military to be used for such things.
    Where does the Constitution specify what the military can and can not be used for? Are you asserting that the Founders didn't use the military to promote U.S. interets?

    Your second question shows you are still missing the point, that the US employs a different kind of imperialism. You’re still trying to make things conform to old world empire definitions. So just to be sure, do you reject the definitions I provided of imperialism? If you do, please say so and why.
    I reject that global hegemony = imperialism, the reason why the U.S. does not comport with the definition of old world empires is because the U.S. is not an empire so in order to label the U.S. imperialistic one has to set about changing the definition of the word imperialist from actually having an empire to merely having a high level of global influence.




    Limited? I have no doubt that the Taliban and AQ were thick as thieves, but how does that refute what I said about the ultimatum? FYI, as early as two days before 9/11 we already had planned to give the Taliban the ultimatum. 9/11 was just extra incentive I guess. As for funding, we gave the Taliban $43 million back in May of ’01.


    Sounds entirely possible to me as far as the indictments are concerned, and I already had no doubt it was an AQ operation, that wasn’t at issue. I still think the FBI should list 9/11 as something he’s wanted for, but that’s just me. I’m just wondering how the government was so sure it was OBL before the tapes came out. Although, since we had plans in the works to take action in Afghanistan before 9/11, that may not even matter much.
    The "carpet of gold or carpet of bombs" ultimatum is complete twoofer bull****:

    A READER ASKS: "WHAT ABOUT BUSH'S CARPET-OF-BOMBS THREAT?

  2. #132
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    Re: What's worse European Imperialism or Islamic Imperialism?

    European Imperialism is a thing of the past now, mostly. American imperialism has replaced it as the hegemonic force in the world. Though that power too is beginning to wane. If Asian growth continues, the next hegemon will come from there. It would be interesting to see China become the next hegemon. Historically, it has not had a thurst for imperialistic conquest or empire, since its confucian values outlined it as being the center of the moral universe; therefore, there was no need to conquer any outside land.

  3. #133
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    Re: What's worse European Imperialism or Islamic Imperialism?

    jin1776,

    Before I respond to your most recent posts to me, I think it would be wise for us to discuss some root issues first. I'm seeing the same errors and assumptions over and over again, and they can be boiled down to the following areas:

    1. the Constitutional use of the military
    2. how much we can trust the State
    3. the role of the UN in our foreign policy/use of military
    4. the Constitutional powers of the president and the congress regarding war

    Another error you keep making, which is minor now, is that you continually deny America is an empire based on the old world empire definition, when I haven't called America an old world empire. You also seek to invalidate the definitions I provided simply by fiat. Since you continue to do this, I see that issue as a dead one. At this point, we can either continue to go back and forth as we have been, or we can knock these issues out one by one and thereby not waste our time so much. We can either do a True Debate for each of these, or we can just do a regular one, your choice.

  4. #134
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    Re: What's worse European Imperialism or Islamic Imperialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinghour View Post
    jin1776,

    Before I respond to your most recent posts to me, I think it would be wise for us to discuss some root issues first. I'm seeing the same errors and assumptions over and over again, and they can be boiled down to the following areas:

    1. the Constitutional use of the military
    Ya an AUMF is tantamount to a declaration of war, nowhere in the Constitution does it specify in what form the legislation must be, I don't see any difference what so ever between the Congress saying "we declare war on so and so" and granting the POTUS the authority to exercise his roll as commander in chief against an enemy which they select.

    2. how much we can trust the State
    [quote]
    3. the role of the UN in our foreign policy/use of military['quote]

    The Constitution is very clear on the matter:

    "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land . . ."

    The UN Charter after ratification by the US became the Supreme Law of the land.

    4. the Constitutional powers of the president and the congress regarding war
    I believe that the Congress must grant the POTUS the authority to exercise his roll as commander in chief.

    Another error you keep making, which is minor now, is that you continually deny America is an empire based on the old world empire definition, when I haven't called America an old world empire.
    Which is why you must seek out new definitions of the term created SPECIFICALLY in order to be able to label this republic an empire. There is a reason why the U.S. doesn't comport with any other empire in the history of the world and the answer is very simple WE ARE NOT AN EMPIRE!

    You also seek to invalidate the definitions I provided simply by fiat. Since you continue to do this, I see that issue as a dead one. At this point, we can either continue to go back and forth as we have been, or we can knock these issues out one by one and thereby not waste our time so much. We can either do a True Debate for each of these, or we can just do a regular one, your choice.
    What ever's clever.

  5. #135
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    Re: What's worse European Imperialism or Islamic Imperialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by jin1776 View Post
    Ya an AUMF is tantamount to a declaration of war, ...
    Another long standing Tot position that has been repeatedly debunked, but he keeps repeating it - that the Oct 2002 authorization to use force issued by Congress, at the time leverage was needed to get inspectors back into Iraq, is the same as a declaration of war.

    Not by a long shot. The president was authorized to use force only if he determined that diplomacy would not work. The Bush administration made that determination and rushed to war, even though after months of blind inspections of hundres of places where the WMD were supposed to be, the inspectors had found virtually nothing.

    Congress gave the president a gun, but it was the Bush administration that pulled the trigger.

  6. #136
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    Re: What's worse European Imperialism or Islamic Imperialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by jin1776 View Post
    What ever's clever.
    I left it up to you. Which one would you like to cover first? Also, it would be helpful to know where you are coming from politically, such as whether you are a statist or a limited government conservative.

  7. #137
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    Re: What's worse European Imperialism or Islamic Imperialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iriemon View Post
    Congress gave the president a gun, but it was the Bush administration that pulled the trigger.
    Does that same excuse hold up in a murder case?
    Quote Originally Posted by SWM
    I never thought infanticide could be so delicious.

  8. #138
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    Re: What's worse European Imperialism or Islamic Imperialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by jin1776 View Post

    Which is why you must seek out new definitions of the term created SPECIFICALLY in order to be able to label this republic an empire. There is a reason why the U.S. doesn't comport with any other empire in the history of the world and the answer is very simple WE ARE NOT AN EMPIRE!
    For the record, I didn't seek out new definitions. I literally did a search and stayed on the first page of results. Also, I agree with you we are not an old world empire, and I have never said we are.

  9. #139
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    Re: What's worse European Imperialism or Islamic Imperialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightOfCenter View Post
    Does that same excuse hold up in a murder case?
    In a murder case against whom? Congress? Sure.

  10. #140
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    Re: What's worse European Imperialism or Islamic Imperialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iriemon View Post
    In a murder case against whom? Congress? Sure.
    I mean if I were to give someone a gun so they could and say "kill this person if you need to" would it not be possible to charge me with murder?
    Quote Originally Posted by SWM
    I never thought infanticide could be so delicious.

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