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Is Capital Punishment Justified?

Should Capital Punishment be supported?

  • It should be supported in both principle and practice.

    Votes: 31 45.6%

  • Yes in principle, but not in practice due to the ambiguity of social bias.

    Votes: 11 16.2%

  • It should be opposed both in principle and practice.

    Votes: 26 38.2%
  • Total voters
    68
EgoffTib said:
There's nothing ironic about it. One is a fully grown human being. It normally has a family and friends. The other is a fetus.
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So you think a fetus is not a living thing; it is not alive? Your argument suggests that it is okay to kill a living being as long as it is not a fully grown human being. My 13 year old is not a fully grown human being, is it okay to kill him?

By the way, the fetus does have a family, which is how the fetus became a living entity in the first place, in normal circumstances. :2wave:
 
Hatuey said:
I have come to expect no less from you. What we have here is a strawman. I make the case that a person can have different opinions on different issues and you come up with some retarded claim about something I never said. Moving on.

2nd strawman. I'm against the war on the basis that it's not worth the effort. I'm for the war in Afghanistan on the basis that it is worth the effort. I'm FOR CHOICE on the basis that it's not my business what people decide to do when they get pregnant. I'm against capital punishment on the basis that it's

The only thing more laughable then the black and white world of retarded conservatives is the fact that they actually live in it.

Proceed.
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What is fascinating irony is your effort to assume that my comments somehow were directed at you.

I assure you, no one particularly myself, cares what YOUR personal views are; my statement was perfectly clear.

I find it ironic that those who oppose the war on the basis that people get killed; have no qualms about killing a fetus.

I am sure it doesn’t occur to you, but my comments may not apply to YOU.

Carry on; your laughable assertions, insults, ad hominems and efforts to make everything about YOU are amusing.

:rofl
 
jamesrage said:
Actually execution by firing squad is still legal in Oklahoma and Idaho. Four inmates in Utah could still face firing squads since the their law banning execution by firing squads was not retroactive.
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I went to a courthouse in texas that was built in 1915 with a state-of-the-art hanging room just above the kitchen. there was a hole in the ceiling in the corner of the kitchen that they put a curtain around because when the feet came through it upset the cook.

just thought that was kind of cute and texasy. but yeah, mormons have been fans of firing squad I believe because there is some redeeming factor in shedding blood for your sins as opposed to being injected or hanged or electrocuted. and as I understand it the four inmates you refer to chose to die by firing squad for that reason.
 
and in response to OP I believe capital punishment is justified because it is government's job to prevent chaos by protecting citizens from each other à la thomas paine. tho I reserve the right to disagree with paine on occasion I believe his commonsensical notions of government's purpose to be right on.
 
Truth Detector said:
So you think a fetus is not a living thing; it is not alive? Your argument suggests that it is okay to kill a living being as long as it is not a fully grown human being. My 13 year old is not a fully grown human being, is it okay to kill him?
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Of course a fetus is a living thing, it just doesn't happen to have the same rights granted to it that living human beings that have been born get. Just because something is alive doesn't make it protected.

I can't believe I have to explain these things. :roll:
 
obvious Child said:
Therefore we should take pains to ensure that we are not punishing those who did not commit the crime. The problem is that the costs to do so rise. Hence when the death penalty is so much more expensive then life in prison.
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Then you as an anti-death penalty nut has absolutely no room what so ever to ****in bitch about the cost of the death penalty because you look at those absurdly extra cost as a means of ensuring that no innocent people get executed.



What the hell? Their deaths don't matter? How can I ignore the financial costs?
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AS you anti-death penalty nuts have stated many times "The government shouldn't be in the business of revenge" , "we shouldn't give a **** about the victims of these scum on death row".

You just said state sanctioned murder of innocents is okay.
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As the abortionist have reminded pro-lifers on more than one occasion. "Murder is the illegal taking of a human life or more specifically the killing of another human under conditions specifically covered in law". Since the individual was found he guilty in a court of law and sentenced to death in a court of law his death is not murder.



You clearly have no understanding of the cost processes involved in ensuring beyond a shadow of a doubt that person committed that crime.
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Then please explain explain the cost on why it cost so much to shoot a few dollars worth of electricity,bullets or lethal drugs into someone. Obviously it is the source of the absurd high cost happen somewhere during the trial and sentencing.
 
jamesrage said:
Then you as an anti-death penalty nut has absolutely no room what so ever to ****in bitch about the cost of the death penalty because you look at those absurdly extra cost as a means of ensuring that no innocent people get executed.
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Come again? The high cost is a problem as it is in effect the necessary tool to ensure we don't kill innocent people. But history has proven that it hasn't been a fail safe as innocents have been executed.

AS you anti-death penalty nuts have stated many times "The government shouldn't be in the business of revenge" , "we shouldn't give a **** about the victims of these scum on death row".
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Where have I said that? Furthermore, you failed (or are deliberately ignoring) where I stated that in principle, capital punishment isn't a bad idea.

Since the individual was found he guilty in a court of law and sentenced to death in a court of law his death is not murder.
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So if we convict an innocent and kill them, they committed the crime we say they did?

That's Fascism right there. If we execute someone who is innocent we have committed murder.

Obviously it is the source of the absurd high cost happen somewhere during the trial and sentencing.
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Exactly. If you want to reduce the costs, then you end up with more innocents being executed. Essentially you have promoted the state killing innocent people.

Explain to me how executing innocent people for crimes they did not commit and not punishing those who did commit that crime to be "Justice."
 
Cannibalism

"Cannibalism"
EgoffTib said:
There's nothing ironic about it. One is a fully grown human being. It normally has a family and friends. The other is a fetus.
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There is a some irony about it.

One pundit group pretences nature to be morally relative, subjective - perspectivism.

Given the position; only positive law itself substantiates the domain of institutional rules.

And, a fetus, prior to an ordain of positive rights, is subject to the moral relativism of nature.

And, a non-citizen, prior to an ordain of positive rights, is subject to the moral relativism of nature.

And, a criminal, posterior to retraction of positive rights, is subject to the moral relativism of nature.

And, it is then ironic that a subjective plea to stay wilful acts of natural indifference, or veracity, be based on moral determinism.

***

Ultimately, it seems that both (anti-abortion and anti-capital punishment) groups pretence nature to be somewhat morally determined by their own subjective opinion.

Each contends their own actions are justified and relatively inconsequential.
Each contends the others actions are unjustified and consequential.

It is ironic that neither side concedes the principles of positive law and moral relativism to the other, which they concede to themselves.
 
Once a person takes an action such as murder or rape, they have forfeited their right to life.
This is a logical postition and one that does not worry about what an offender "might" contribute if reformed.
I simply don't care... they made their choice and need to face the consequences and is completely justified...



:2wave:
 
I've only ever heard two good arguments against the death penalty ("capital punishment" is a euphemism, and I don't like euphemisms.)

1. It can never be "undone" or compensated for in case of a mistake.

2. It is degrading to society to kill someone in that manner.

Although I only recognize these two, they are for me somewhat compelling, so I lean against capital punishment, although this is the one issue I've never been able to make my mind up on once and for all.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Once a person takes an action such as murder or rape, they have forfeited their right to life.
This is a logical postition and one that does not worry about what an offender "might" contribute if reformed.
I simply don't care... they made their choice and need to face the consequences and is completely justified...
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That is NOT an especially logical position. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but it's certainly not based on logic. It's just based on your preconception of what justice is or should be.

Personally I think that the government should be less barbaric than criminals. At the very least, it shouldn't be even MORE barbaric. Yet that is exactly what you are suggesting. In the case of rapists, you want the government to kill someone who hasn't even killed anyone themselves. The punishment is even harsher than the crime. In the case of murder, you're at least on more solid ground in demanding their execution...but it's still rooted in emotion. It doesn't benefit society to execute them as opposed to imprisoning them.
 
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I'm confused. Cephus and Jamesrage admit we need to mitigate the death of innocents via capital punishment but they also want to excise much of the procedural framework that allows us to do just that (appeals process). Perhaps you can explain this contradiction in logic as I am quite perplexed.

Is Capital Punishment Justified?
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It depends. Is it practically justified? No. It's too expensive and it's imperfect. I would rather see ten guilty men go free than live with the knowledge that one innocent man was put to death; that is unconscionable.

Philosophically is it justified? I believe so, yes. If there were a perfect method of determination I believe the death penalty would be warranted for murderers, rapists, and child molesters. Philosophically I would pose no objection to having such people put to death. They are monsters and they deserve to die.
 
Truth Detector said:
So you think a fetus is not a living thing; it is not alive?
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I'd like you to quote where I said that. Also, bugs are living things.

Your argument suggests that it is okay to kill a living being as long as it is not a fully grown human being. My 13 year old is not a fully grown human being, is it okay to kill him?
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Straw man. I have never made the argument that only fully grown human beings should live. You compared abortion to the death penalty. All I said was that they were different because one is a fetus and the other a fully grown human being.

By the way, the fetus does have a family, which is how the fetus became a living entity in the first place, in normal circumstances. :2wave:
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Valid point.
 
Rick said:
1. It can never be "undone" or compensated for in case of a mistake.
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Nothing we do can ever be "undone" or compensated for adequately. If you put someone in prison wrongly for 30 years, only to discover they were not guilty, you can't return those 30 years to the person, no matter how much money you throw at them. Sorry, a trillion dollars cannot compensate in any way for even a single year of my life lost. But we don't stop putting people in prison because we might make a mistake, do we?

2. It is degrading to society to kill someone in that manner.
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That one is ridiculous. Society has a right to take out the trash and remove dangerous components from circulation, permanently if necessary. Pragmatically, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to keep someone alive if they're never going to get out of prison, I have yet to hear a single logical argument for doing so.
 
Rick said:
I've only ever heard two good arguments against the death penalty ("capital punishment" is a euphemism, and I don't like euphemisms.)

1. It can never be "undone" or compensated for in case of a mistake.

2. It is degrading to society to kill someone in that manner.

Although I only recognize these two, they are for me somewhat compelling, so I lean against capital punishment, although this is the one issue I've never been able to make my mind up on once and for all.
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Your comments reflect my feelings as well. The ONLY issue I have is watching murderers go free when there is no death penalty. If I could be assured that these killers would NEVER be released, the death penalty in my opinion becomes moot.
 
Truth Detector said:
Your comments reflect my feelings as well. The ONLY issue I have is watching murderers go free when there is no death penalty. If I could be assured that these killers would NEVER be released, the death penalty in my opinion becomes moot.
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I never thought I'd thank a TD post... Hell must be freezing over
bananadance.gif
 
jamesrage said:
Not only yes capital punishment is justified but hell yes it is justified. Those who commit certain heinous crimes are not deserving of life. Capital punishment serves as the ultimate punishment. It is unfair to the victims loved ones and other honest citizens to have to provide shelter,medical care, food, libraries, security,entertainment and other things to these scum who are behind bars.
"Sorry Jimmy's family and friends not only did this scumbag kill little Jimmy now you get to support this scumbag for the rest of his life." Its seems like adding insult to injury to the victims,the victim's loved ones and other honest law abiding citizens. In some cases the death penalty serves as a deterrent.

Most of the anti-death penalty nuts seem to show as much compassion for the victims and their loved ones as the scum on death row.
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The flaw in that logic is that it cost more to execute a prisoner than to keep in jail for life.
 
Truth Detector said:
Your comments reflect my feelings as well. The ONLY issue I have is watching murderers go free when there is no death penalty. If I could be assured that these killers would NEVER be released, the death penalty in my opinion becomes moot.
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The problem is, even if we can keep them away from the general population, they still pose a danger to other inmates and guards in the prisons, plus the fact that we have to keep feeding, clothing and apparently, paying for their cable TV for the rest of their lives.

They're just not worth that.
 
Rick said:
I've only ever heard two good arguments against the death penalty ("capital punishment" is a euphemism, and I don't like euphemisms.)

1. It can never be "undone" or compensated for in case of a mistake.
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See the crap thing about that arguement is, you cannot undo anything. A person spending time in prison, no matter how long, is removed from his/her life and placed in a dangerous situation.

Could a 21 year sitting out of a life sentence be considered "undone" If a person had young children or one on the way, that child would not know the parent save visits to the prison if allowed. The constant fear inside the institution for someone who is not a hardened criminal would be enough to constitute "inhumane" imo as well. Not to mention how that person would change over the course of those years.

Meh, I can't exactly agree with the "cannot be undone" arguement as like I've stated before. I would rather die then spend any substantial period of my life in prison.
 
Ethereal said:
I'm confused. Cephus and Jamesrage admit we need to mitigate the death of innocents via capital punishment but they also want to excise much of the procedural framework that allows us to do just that (appeals process). Perhaps you can explain this contradiction in logic as I am quite perplexed.
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Agreed. There seems to be a indirect relationship between trial costs in proving innocence/guilt and executing innocents. The less we spend on trials, the more innocents get the can. The more we spend, the fewer.

I frankly don't see a way of getting around in today's world. We either accept the high costs or we accept more innocents being executed to maintain the system as it is now.
 
Re the claims that nothing can be undone: OF COURSE nothing can literally be undone, that would be time travel. But partial compensation can be given for an erroneous jail sentence - most people spend most of their lives working - a monetary award, say double what the person would have earned, goes a long way to at least make up for the economic damage. But with the death penalty NO compensation is possible.

As for the degradation to the killer of a defenseless man, that is probably subjective, but I think most people who aren't barbarians will grasp it, even those who nonetheless support the death penalty.
 
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