View Poll Results: Should Capital Punishment be supported?

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  • It should be supported in both principle and practice.

    43 47.78%
  • Yes in principle, but not in practice due to the ambiguity of social bias.

    14 15.56%
  • It should be opposed both in principle and practice.

    33 36.67%
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Thread: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

  1. #71
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Great, you pay for that. You pay for their food and upkeep, the prisons and the guards that have to be built and hired... oh, and have them build them in your back yard so others aren't inconvenienced.
    Let's see... 59 people were executed in 2004. I doubt that many more guards were needed to guard these criminals. But hell, I guess everyone's been grossly inconvenienced by 59 people right?
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Which was done in the original trial, then it was done again in the mandatory appeal. That's twice. How many times do we have to prove it? How many frivolous appeals do we have to permit before we say enough and execute the criminal? That's where the cost comes in, not the execution itself.
    By saying this, are you admitting that you're okay with killing the innocent guy that comes along every year or two who didn't commit the crime he's being found guilty of?

    If so, that's fine. That blood is on your hands, not mine.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  3. #73
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    We do not punish criminals based on the few who might actually be innocent. We punish criminals based on the fact that the huge vast majority of them are guilty of the crime they have been convicted of.
    And yet innocents are still killed. I guess that's alright by you. It's not by me.

    Besides the anti-death penalty side already stated that it doesn't the government shouldn't be in the business of "revenge", so in that regard if there are actually innocent people who have been executed their deaths do not matter to you either and I am sure the financial cost do not matter to you either.
    Their lives matter to me.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  4. #74
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    By saying this, are you admitting that you're okay with killing the innocent guy that comes along every year or two who didn't commit the crime he's being found guilty of?

    If so, that's fine. That blood is on your hands, not mine.
    I acknowledge that it is possible that someone not guilty of the particular crime may, in extremely rare situations, get wrongly put to death. That's unfortunate, but since we're not perfect, nor will we ever be perfect, it may, indeed happen. All we can do is strive to limit these cases as much as we possibly can. We don't stop putting people in jail because we make mistakes, we shouldn't stop executing people because of the possibility of making mistakes.

    And yes, if that puts the blood on my hands, fine. I've got no problem with that.
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  5. #75
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    We do not punish criminals based on the few who might actually be innocent. We punish criminals based on the fact that the huge vast majority of them are guilty of the crime they have been convicted of.
    Therefore we should take pains to ensure that we are not punishing those who did not commit the crime. The problem is that the costs to do so rise. Hence when the death penalty is so much more expensive then life in prison.

    Besides the anti-death penalty side already stated that it doesn't the government shouldn't be in the business of "revenge", so in that regard if there are actually innocent people who have been executed their deaths do not matter to you either and I am sure the financial cost do not matter to you either.
    What the hell? Their deaths don't matter? How can I ignore the financial costs?

    You just said state sanctioned murder of innocents is okay. That's evil.

    Then it needs to be made cheaper.
    Then you end up killing more innocent people.

    I am sure those things can be cut. Because there is no reason why one trial for murder should cost more than the other, there is no reason why someone who was convicted with very strong evidence should have a **** load of appeals, nor is there any reason why one court appointed attorney should cost more than another court attorney for the accused.
    You clearly have no understanding of the cost processes involved in ensuring beyond a shadow of a doubt that person committed that crime.
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  6. #76
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Which was done in the original trial, then it was done again in the mandatory appeal. That's twice. How many times do we have to prove it? How many frivolous appeals do we have to permit before we say enough and execute the criminal? That's where the cost comes in, not the execution itself.
    Nolt necessarily. Furthermore, the string of releases from death row since the 70s is pretty telling that trials, or at least the first one is not exactly reliable and that new evidence can spring those from jail. The Supreme Court itself stated that there was inherent racial bias in who gets the chair and who gets thrown in prison for life. Not to mention that more then a few had their key witness changes their story from the original trial to the appeal. The whole process is a mine field if you look at it historically. We really should make it so expensive that only those who truly need to be removed are spent the money on. The death penalty in principle isn't a bad concept.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  7. #77
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    The Supreme Court itself stated that there was inherent racial bias in who gets the chair and who gets thrown in prison for life.
    That's not a reason to stop the death penalty, but to fix the legal process, which is a tremendous mess right now. Besides, I think we need to eliminate LWOP anyhow, if you're going to get thrown in prison for the rest of your life with no chance of ever getting out, why not just kill 'em and clear the prison space for someone else?
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  8. #78
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's not a reason to stop the death penalty, but to fix the legal process, which is a tremendous mess right now.
    Well, how do you fix the issues of juries? In Furman VS Georgia the court noted that a black man who committed the same crime as a white man was something like 50% more likely to get the chair. That's pretty frightening.

    Besides, I think we need to eliminate LWOP anyhow, if you're going to get thrown in prison for the rest of your life with no chance of ever getting out, why not just kill 'em and clear the prison space for someone else?
    Is white collar crime worthy of the death penalty? Bernard J. Ebbers is going to jail for life for accounting fraud. Is his crime worthy of execution?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  9. #79
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child
    Well, how do you fix the issues of juries? In Furman VS Georgia the court noted that a black man who committed the same crime as a white man was something like 50% more likely to get the chair. That's pretty frightening.
    I've already said the entire legal system is a disaster. Juries are made up of people too stupid to get out of jury service, they are easily manipulated by shyster lawyers and are often selected specifically because they are seen as easy to manipulate. The best immediate solution would be a move to professional juries, people who get paid to sit on juries, who are unbiased, who are not racist or classist, who are not completely scientifically illiterate and who are dedicated to finding the truth, not just which lawyer talks fastest.

    Secondly, we need to shift the legal profession away from defending the client to seeing justice be done. Currently, lawyers lie, cheat and steal and do anything they can to convince a jury that their client didn't do it, even if they know for a fact that he did.

    Third, I'd like to see some form of manditory sentencing that would stop racist sentences like the above. If two people commit the same crime, they get the same sentence, no matter what color they are, how much money they have or who they know. The only thing that matters is the crime, nothing more.

    Yes, I know it's an uphill battle to get that, especially when the people you need to convince are the lawyers who currently benefit from the system as it is today. Why do we keep creating systems where we let the inmates run the asylum and can only put them back into their cells with their consent?

    Is white collar crime worthy of the death penalty? Bernard J. Ebbers is going to jail for life for accounting fraud. Is his crime worthy of execution?
    I don't know the specifics of the case, in general terms I would say no though, the death penalty should be reserved for murderers, but that's a personal opinion. However, just pointing to one questionable case doesn't in any way disprove the usefullness of capital punishment overall.
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I've already said the entire legal system is a disaster. Juries are made up of people too stupid to get out of jury service, they are easily manipulated by shyster lawyers and are often selected specifically because they are seen as easy to manipulate. The best immediate solution would be a move to professional juries, people who get paid to sit on juries, who are unbiased, who are not racist or classist, who are not completely scientifically illiterate and who are dedicated to finding the truth, not just which lawyer talks fastest.
    Finding those people and ensuring that they are such is going to be pretty hard.

    Secondly, we need to shift the legal profession away from defending the client to seeing justice be done. Currently, lawyers lie, cheat and steal and do anything they can to convince a jury that their client didn't do it, even if they know for a fact that he did.
    As I understand it, most of the lawyers representing death row inmates are public defenders who don't have a stake in that. Unlike in civil court where they can get huge payoffs for winning, public defenders have set salaries. There really isn't incentive to lie, cheat and steal for them.

    The only thing that matters is the crime, nothing more
    This might be the case now.

    I don't know the specifics of the case, in general terms I would say no though, the death penalty should be reserved for murderers, but that's a personal opinion. However, just pointing to one questionable case doesn't in any way disprove the usefullness of capital punishment overall.
    I never intended that. The CEO of Worldcom was an example of whether or not we should execute those who are going to die in prison anyways as you suggested even for non-violent crimes. Is cooking the books worthy of execution like serial murder?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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