View Poll Results: Should Capital Punishment be supported?

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  • It should be supported in both principle and practice.

    43 47.78%
  • Yes in principle, but not in practice due to the ambiguity of social bias.

    14 15.56%
  • It should be opposed both in principle and practice.

    33 36.67%
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Thread: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

  1. #371
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I've always been thankful that Canada doesn't have capital punishment. I believe that the way we treat our criminals is a reflection of our society in general, and killing them displays a poor disposition towards the value we place on life.
    It's a poor disposition toward the value of life when you don't stomp out people who take innocent peoples' lives with the fury of a 1000 sun Gods. It's a poor disposition toward the value of life to recognize murderers as humans deserving of rights.

    State sponsored murder is the easy way out. It's essentially sweeping the problem under the rug and letting it rot there, mostly because it prevents us from considering the complex web of events that lead to heinous crimes. Instead, it is more convenient to condemn the criminal, who is the last step in those series of events, as evil, and do away with him/her. That is not taking responsibility.
    I sense a criminal reformation argument approaching.

    If a criminal gets to the point of killing mercilessly, then it shows that not enough attention was paid to the warning signs when that person was growing up. Society has failed these people because their mental disturbance was not taken seriously enough early on.
    That isn't mutually exclusive of supporting the death penalty. I agree that we should be more observant toward the warning signs and offer help and preventative measures. That said, anyone who slips past that and is in the mental stage where they feel it's ok to murder another person, there is no reformation, not that they even deserve it.

    This is reminding me of A Clockwork Orange. "I was cured all right"

    In my view, society SHOULD bear the burden for as long as the person remains alive, because it failed to take notice when it would have counted.
    That's assuming it's societies responsibility to prevent people form murdering. It isn't in my opinion, it's something society should be interested in, it's something society should help, but not it's responsibility.

    I'm not claiming that intervention can save every person, but if you watch interviews with criminals on death row or read some of the books they publish, a lot of them are super intelligent people. Some are geniuses that have channeled their genius into crime and slaughter.
    And that speaks volumes of thier character. They have proven that they have no concern about other people's lives, they have proven that they view society as something to be exploited for personal gain, and don't see why we should offer them a chance to do it a second time and ruin another life. They'll do and say anything to get out including pleaing that they are changed, but there is no reason to believe them.

  2. #372
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post
    It's a poor disposition toward the value of life when you don't stomp out people who take innocent peoples' lives with the fury of a 1000 sun Gods. It's a poor disposition toward the value of life to recognize murderers as humans deserving of rights.
    I don't think it's about justice, but it's about revenge. Most people who are put to death also fear for their lives, and that, in principle, is supposed to make the family and friends of their victim somehow feel better. I will never understand how reproducing fatal suffering is supposed to right a wrong.

    It depends on who you are talking to, but I'm not convinced that inflicting death on another is going to make you feel better per se. Forgiveness is the more ever lasting route, because then you can learn let it go. Forgiveness is not the same as doing nothing. Doing nothing is easy, but forgiving is hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post
    I sense a criminal reformation argument approaching.
    Not really. I'm not suggesting that all murderers can be reformed. This has to do more with our disposition towards those murderers. I don't believe murdering a murderer makes us any better. And I'm not in favor of execution, so my tax dollars should not pay for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post
    That isn't mutually exclusive of supporting the death penalty. I agree that we should be more observant toward the warning signs and offer help and preventative measures. That said, anyone who slips past that and is in the mental stage where they feel it's ok to murder another person, there is no reformation, not that they even deserve it.
    Well, herein lies the problem. Why does one person who murders deserve the death penalty while another does not? The law is not applied consistency. Why is one instance more grave than another? It all has to do with subjectivity sensibilities... what jury you get, what the judge thinks, what city you're in, if what people think you did is "bad enough" to warrant execution. There are plenty of mentally disturbed murderers idling away in jail for the rest of their lives, yet others die.

    Why do some places think it's worth trying to reform, while other places just want to kill them and be done with it? Both approaches exist simultaneously in the U.S. It's not fair that some die based on where they committed the crime while others get lesser sentences. It's not fair that some die and some don't based on the luck of how the jury is comprised.

    If some don't deserve to die, then none should deserve to die. That would correct the discrepancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post
    This is reminding me of A Clockwork Orange. "I was cured all right"
    It's not just about rehabiliating the criminal, it's also about what our treatment of them does for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post
    That's assuming it's societies responsibility to prevent people form murdering. It isn't in my opinion, it's something society should be interested in, it's something society should help, but not it's responsibility.
    That's not exactly what I meant. I didn't mean finding a murder suspect, sitting them down and trying to get to the root of the problem. By then it might be too late. I mean... when the kid grows up, is bullied, has strange tendencies, clearly is "different", shows patterns of behaviour that aren't quote/unquote "normal". A lot of people just don't want to get involved, or they contribute to the problem. Murderers aren't just born, they develop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post
    And that speaks volumes of thier character. They have proven that they have no concern about other people's lives, they have proven that they view society as something to be exploited for personal gain, and don't see why we should offer them a chance to do it a second time and ruin another life. They'll do and say anything to get out including pleaing that they are changed, but there is no reason to believe them.
    And why do they view society as something to exploit? Why do they feel lives are dispensible? They got that impression from somewhere, or someone. This is what I'm talking about. Execution is putting away a mistake that is partially a collective one. I'm not trying to absolve the person of responsibility, they did their crime.

    Maybe, in a sense, executing them is permanently putting away something that we feel is a mistake... something that we are so ashamed of that we don't ever want to see it again. After all, if a vicious person is still alive in jail, then we cannot convince ourselves that our society is such a great place. Killing them at least puts that disgrace to an end.
    Last edited by Orion; 12-09-08 at 07:35 AM.

  3. #373
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnie1988 View Post
    Can any of you anti-death penalty, but pro-Obama supporters give a link to your message in which you rage against Obama for supporting the death penalty for the rape of children?
    If he supports the death penalty for the rape of children, does he also support the death penalty for himself for the murder of children?

  4. #374
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I've always been thankful that Canada doesn't have capital punishment. I believe that the way we treat our criminals is a reflection of our society in general, and killing them displays a poor disposition towards the value we place on life.

    State sponsored murder is the easy way out. It's essentially sweeping the problem under the rug and letting it rot there, mostly because it prevents us from considering the complex web of events that lead to heinous crimes. Instead, it is more convenient to condemn the criminal, who is the last step in those series of events, as evil, and do away with him/her. That is not taking responsibility.

    If a criminal gets to the point of killing mercilessly, then it shows that not enough attention was paid to the warning signs when that person was growing up. Society has failed these people because their mental disturbance was not taken seriously enough early on.

    In my view, society SHOULD bear the burden for as long as the person remains alive, because it failed to take notice when it would have counted. I'm not claiming that intervention can save every person, but if you watch interviews with criminals on death row or read some of the books they publish, a lot of them are super intelligent people. Some are geniuses that have channeled their genius into crime and slaughter.
    That's lame. So you're saying it's our fault because someone is a ****ing lunatic? Pfffft!

  5. #375
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post

    It depends on who you are talking to, but I'm not convinced that inflicting death on another is going to make you feel better per se. Forgiveness is the more ever lasting route, because then you can learn let it go. Forgiveness is not the same as doing nothing. Doing nothing is easy, but forgiving is hard.

    Yes, People like Jeff Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy just needed a little forgiveness and a hug. How dare the parents of those victims be angry?

  6. #376
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Invayne View Post
    If he supports the death penalty for the rape of children, does he also support the death penalty for himself for the murder of children?
    ....
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    ....
    What's with the eye rolling? He supports partial birth abortion, and he also supports leaving a living child...I mean, a botched abortion...in a back room to die.

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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Invayne View Post
    What's with the eye rolling? He supports partial birth abortion, and he also supports leaving a living child...I mean, a botched abortion...in a back room to die.
    Didn't he just vote against a bill banning partial birth abortion due to some of things in the bill. That is what he claimed.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Didn't he just vote against a bill banning partial birth abortion due to some of things in the bill. That is what he claimed.
    Don't let facts stand in the way of extremism.

    "On an issue like partial birth abortion, I strongly believe that the state can properly restrict late-term abortions. I have said so repeatedly. All I've said is we should have a provision to protect the health of the mother, and many of the bills that came before me didn't have that."

    4/27/08 Interview on Fox News

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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Invayne View Post
    Yes, People like Jeff Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy just needed a little forgiveness and a hug. How dare the parents of those victims be angry?
    I never said anything about hugs. I never even said anything about forgiving them to their faces. Forgiveness is something that you do for yourself, so that you can move on. But people prefer to hold onto things bitterly, and they continue to do so even after criminals get executed. Again, it's not about justice, but about the draconian idea that revenge is supposed to make you feel better. It doesn't.

    And I never said "how dare them", like being angry means there is something wrong with them, so stop twisting my words. Their anger is totally understandable... but their anger isn't just their own. It becomes systemic anger that translates into a death penalty.

    Again, I don't wish for my tax dollars to fund someone's murder, which is why I am happy with Canada's lack of a death penalty.

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