View Poll Results: Should Capital Punishment be supported?

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  • It should be supported in both principle and practice.

    43 47.78%
  • Yes in principle, but not in practice due to the ambiguity of social bias.

    14 15.56%
  • It should be opposed both in principle and practice.

    33 36.67%
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Thread: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

  1. #351
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post
    If it's getting reported either way then why is it so significant to the difference between capital punishment and life imprisonment?
    Because the defendent is killed and silenced and the warning to others is greater.



    But what would they say related to whether or not they are innocent that they wouldn't have said during the trial
    That is less important to what they can say and do in other spheres like their politics.

    And maybe this was true during the cold war or whatever, but we don't live in a society in which a government with access to capital punishment is resulting in people being charged of murder because of extreme political ramblings. If that were true, Noam Chompsky would have been executed by now.
    I thought you were a socialist party member?

    But this isn't about thier political beliefs, this is about thier ability to voice thier innocence. Anything they could have said to convince the jury they were innocent would have been said before the conviction anyway, so its irrelevent.
    I'm talking about them being silenced on everything particularly on spreading their political views which is one of the main reasons for the fitting up of people like Joe Hill.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  2. #352
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Because the defendent is killed and silenced and the warning to others is greater.
    Let me ask you something. If the general population was SO AFRAID of being executed by the government for nothing they did wrong, WHY do many states still have it when the voters could have easily elected a politician who would have abolished it?

    That is less important to what they can say and do in other spheres like their politics.
    Why would the govenrment go through the process of setting someone up for murder just to kill them, when they could just hire an assasin to do it? Wouldn't it be more effective?

    You realize subversively executing someone DEFIES THE PURPOSE of 'making an example out of them'? If the government were some tyranical monarch who needed to kill people to make them afraid of chalenging them, they would have to execute people explicitly for that purpose.

    How does tricking the public into thinking they executed a guilty criminal cause them to be more afraid of thier government? That does the opposite, it makes them less afraid because they don't believe anything out of the ordinary happened.

    I thought you were a socialist party member?
    So? Why haven't people with extreme political points of view been executed recently? I'am pretty sure at least quite a few states still have capital punishment do they not?

    I'm talking about them being silenced on everything particularly on spreading their political views which is one of the main reasons for the fitting up of people like Joe Hill.
    Joe hill wasn't killed by the government, he was killed by an ignorant, early 1900s jury from Utah.

  3. #353
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Time to UNLINK this one.

  4. #354
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post
    Let me ask you something. If the general population was SO AFRAID of being executed by the government for nothing they did wrong, WHY do many states still have it when the voters could have easily elected a politician who would have abolished it?
    Hardly a decent argument. There could be any number of reasons including that they believe this fear is a good thing. A lot of Germans voted for the Nazis.



    Why would the govenrment go through the process of setting someone up for murder just to kill them, when they could just hire an assasin to do it? Wouldn't it be more effective?
    Ask those who set up Joe Hill.

    You realize subversively executing someone DEFIES THE PURPOSE of 'making an example out of them'? If the government were some tyranical monarch who needed to kill people to make them afraid of chalenging them, they would have to execute people explicitly for that purpose.
    Not really, if it is thought among a particularl group that he was executed for his views then they are likely to take this on board.

    How does tricking the public into thinking they executed a guilty criminal cause them to be more afraid of thier government? That does the opposite, it makes them less afraid because they don't believe anything out of the ordinary happened.
    You are confusing things. In this part we were talking about particular groups.



    So?
    You attackecd Chomsky or seemed to.

    Why haven't people with extreme political points of view been executed recently? I'am pretty sure at least quite a few states still have capital punishment do they not?
    Who knows? It has happened and could happened and is one reason I don't want the UK bringing the death penalty back. I don't particular care about the US.


    Joe hill wasn't killed by the government, he was killed by an ignorant, early 1900s jury from Utah.
    It was the gov't of Utah. The jury did not bring him to trial.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Hardly a decent argument. There could be any number of reasons including that they believe this fear is a good thing. A lot of Germans voted for the Nazis.
    It's unavoidable, without variation a Nazi or Hitler reference is inevitable in any thread given a bit of time.

    But no. I garuntee you if you polled the population of Texas as to why they suppport the death penalty, little to none would say "because I'am afraid of the government and it's a good thing". Almost all of them would say "because they deserve it". Some might be inclined to use deterance argument, but one way or another.

    Ask those who set up Joe Hill.
    Joe Hill was convicted by a jury of his peers. He also had an alibi he refused to explain. I don't see how you can use one or two (weak) examples of a likely mistrial from the early 1900s to justify your argument.

    Not really, if it is thought among a particularl group that he was executed for his views then they are likely to take this on board.
    Anytime anyone from a 'particular group', which is almost everybody, is convicted the fellows of that group are always going to suspect it was some currupt political exectution.

    Should we not be able to convict black people, at all ever, because a significant amount of people will believe that whenever it does happen it's "Just because he is black"?

    You are confusing things. In this part we were talking about particular groups.
    See above.

    It was the gov't of Utah. The jury did not bring him to trial.
    Bringing someone to trial does not kill them, sentencing them to death does. The jury did that not the government.

  6. #356
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonslayer View Post
    In world history, "conservatives" historically do ultimately come to murdering individually and then in mass all opposing voices. I've posted many times that as I came into politics I was stunned by the extreme intolerance in general and hatred of freedom and free speech most conservatives have. Conservative and Dictator come to be the same word.

    You got your words mixed up, so I fixed them for you. I know that you want to portray the truth.
    Too bad you don't want to portray the truth...

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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post


    They can and they have. What about Julian and Ethel Rosenberrg? Teh thing is, that once you open the door to granting that kind of power to the government, they WILL abuse it. Guaranteed it will happen eventually.

    I don't think it was abused in the Rosenberg case. They got what they deserved, especially during that time period.

  8. #358
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post

    But no. I garuntee you if you polled the population of Texas as to why they suppport the death penalty, little to none would say "because I'am afraid of the government and it's a good thing". Almost all of them would say "because they deserve it". Some might be inclined to use deterance argument, but one way or another.
    So?



    Joe Hill was convicted by a jury of his peers. He also had an alibi he refused to explain. I don't see how you can use one or two (weak) examples of a likely mistrial from the early 1900s to justify your argument.
    Because you said only murderers had to fear.



    Anytime anyone from a 'particular group', which is almost everybody, is convicted the fellows of that group are always going to suspect it was some currupt political exectution.

    Should we not be able to convict black people, at all ever, because a significant amount of people will believe that whenever it does happen it's "Just because he is black"?
    IN the South years ago that might have been justified. In the cases we were talking about there was corruption involved.


    Bringing someone to trial does not kill them, sentencing them to death does. The jury did that not the government.
    Who set it all up? Who called for execution? What was the standard sentence for murder in Utah at the time?
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  9. #359
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by AKLee View Post
    Hello there people,

    Just a thought here: in many developed regions we see the abolishment of capital punishment as a penalty for any crime. However, there still exists countries that do still exercise the death penalty system (approximately 90 countries) with 38 out of 50 states in the U.S. still endorsing the death penalty.

    A major element of the argument will be the value of life: the side that supports capital punishment may argue that abolishing it results in the devaluation of respect for human life as the punishment is not proportionate and as such, does not reflect the significance of the crime. Also, the fact that the punishment is congruent to the crime proves that the system reflects the objective of the judiciary system: to deter.

    The side that opposes capital punishment may argue that in the simplest of terms, execution is state-seanctioned killing - how different will taking the life of a killer be than taking the life of an innocent if the main objective is to preserve human life in general? Moreover, who is the judiciary system to have the right to take away one's right to life - the most fundamental of all rights? We all know how prejudice clouds judgement, especially in the fragile glass sheet that is today's society. Social bias makes secularity impossible, making the system unequal and as such, impossible to implement capital punishment in.

    So what do you think? Should the use capital punishment be supported or opposed?

    -Alex
    I'm not sure how silly I am for saying this, but if someone commits a crime that most people say deserve the death sentence, then that person should not be given the death sentence.

    Being in prison for the rest of a person's life is far worse in my opinion. Why not give these criminals a life sentence and only the bare minimums (food and water)?
    Last edited by Cilogy; 12-08-08 at 03:30 AM.


  10. #360
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    As part of my undergrad I wrote a paper on the history of sexuality in Asia. (I'll explain why this is relevant in a second.) One book I read for that paper was by a French author named Michael Foucault, the title being "The History of Sexuality". In it, he traces the tendency of Western civilization, since the beginning of industrialization, to go from a period where life was relatively dispensible, to a period where life is preserved at all costs. Nations all over the world are now adopting this kind of policy. The term he coins to describe it is "bio power". You can read a short blurb about it here.

    In a era where environmental disasters, threats of nuclear war, resiliant diseases, increasing social problems, and a wealth of other threats continue to appear, our governments have become regulators of life. For instance, when one person dies of something as a result of human error or even disease, the government will implement a regulation to make sure no one else dies of it. We have gradually transformed from a society where war and death are the status quo, to one where life is preserved to even ridiculous levels.

    When I read the OP, I was thinking about how execution in the developed world is a remnant of the era when we gave little concern to the regulation of life. People used all sorts of crazy chemicals in their daily lives that are now banned; people engaged in risky, life threatening behaviours that could now land you jail time; soldiers went to war routinely, and criminals were punished severely. The reason why a lot of developed nations are now outlawing capital punishment is, in my opinion, due to the influence of biopower.

    However, in the U.S., as is its tradition, modern influences are often clashed with traditional influences, so you see a strange dichotomy happening. On one hand you have biopower trying to keep people safe and make sure human lives can proliferate, and on the other hand you have the older, traditional model demanding classic forms of punishment for criminals. This is why I enjoy U.S. politics... there is always a clash of cultures happening there and nothing ever seems to be cut and dry.

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