View Poll Results: Should Capital Punishment be supported?

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  • It should be supported in both principle and practice.

    43 47.78%
  • Yes in principle, but not in practice due to the ambiguity of social bias.

    14 15.56%
  • It should be opposed both in principle and practice.

    33 36.67%
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Thread: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

  1. #341
    Dorset Patriot
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    They can and they have. What about Julian and Ethel Rosenberrg? Teh thing is, that once you open the door to granting that kind of power to the government, they WILL abuse it. Guaranteed it will happen eventually.
    What about Sacco and Vanzetti? Or Joe Hill?

    American history for a start is a wash with such judicial murders, mainly labour organisers and leftists.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  2. #342
    Advisor Unrein's Avatar
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Actually, if you want to place a qualifier, you need it to not be "Murderer" you need ti to be "someone convicted of Murder". Innocent people can be killed by fabrication of evidence (it's been done).
    Murderers however, are always in danger of being convicted. Innocent people would have to be involved in an extraordinary series of misfortunate coincidenses that happens rarely, to be convicted then executed.

    You realize people are convicted of murder by JURY don't you? That means the government is not stamping the seal people who get that summons do.

    So to be fair, it's not a guarantee that the only people killed by the govenrment will be "murderers". In a governemtn as corruypt and incompetant as ourts, I would have to take te conservative route and err on the side of caution and assume that that incompetance and corruption extends into the penal/judicial system to some degree as well.
    Do you think more than half of the people convicted of murder are innocent? What do you think the % is? Does this logic extend to any crime? Should ALL punishment be lowered since anyone convicted of ANY crime could possibly be innocent? In fact I bet it happens a LOT more often in lesser crimes then crimes like murder.

    Why have any punishment at all since any judgement could possibly be false? Why not side on caution?

    They can and they have. What about Julian and Ethel Rosenberrg? Teh thing is, that once you open the door to granting that kind of power to the government, they WILL abuse it. Guaranteed it will happen eventually.
    The government doesn't actually convict people of murder. The Jury has the final decision.

    And anyone who is worth setting up for murder HAS to be able to afford thier own lawyer, so you can't even blame the public defenders.

    How exactly is giving the 'government' the ability to murder going to increase incentive? Why wouldn't they use the same power to simply imprison who ever they want instead?

    Do you really believe that? What about our corrupt, power hungry government lead your to that assumptioon? The Patriot act? Free Speech Zones? Guantamo bay?


    Life sentences will be abused by the goverenment, but it allows time for those who want to aid th ewrongfully imprisoned party to do so. Countless Life sentences have been repealed after they've been carried out. 0 Death sentences have been repealed after they've been carried out.
    A death sentence can be repealled, there is a long period of time between the conviction and the execution. All it means is that life sentances happen a lot more often.

    Repeals usually happen because of a change in evidence, not a change in 'support'. Any lawyers who want to help a convict have plenty of time regardless of the punishment. They can request extentions if they have significant reason to suspect false evidence or witness or whatever it may be.

    The fact of the matter ias that life sentences already exist and removing the death penalty will not change that so the argument is asinine.
    It's not asinine, we are speaking idealistically so you could remove even life sentences if you wanted. Again, why even let them do that since that just as much as capital punishment can spread fear, be abused unto innocent people, etc.?

    You are trying to logically justify that which is logically unjustifiable by creatinga strawman, non-sequitor arguemtn because you have no logical reason to want the death penalty.
    I saw no strawman, nor did I see a non-sequitor until you posted this.

    You only have emotional ones.
    What emotion? Where?

  3. #343
    Advisor Unrein's Avatar
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    What about Sacco and Vanzetti? Or Joe Hill?

    American history for a start is a wash with such judicial murders, mainly labour organisers and leftists.
    Your problem is with the prosecution process, not with the punishment. Had capital punishment been abolished both Vendetti the Rosenburgs would have spent the rest of thier lives in prison, justice of any greater magnitude would not have been served. In fact, some argue life imprisonment is worse than death.

  4. #344
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post
    Your problem is with the prosecution process, not with the punishment. Had capital punishment been abolished both Vendetti the Rosenburgs would have spent the rest of thier lives in prison, justice of any greater magnitude would not have been served. In fact, some argue life imprisonment is worse than death.
    No my problem is also with the punishment. They were executed wrongly as a way of silencing them and warning off others like them. It would not have had the same effect if they were just locked up, it doesn't silence them.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  5. #345
    Advisor Unrein's Avatar
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    No my problem is also with the punishment. They were executed wrongly as a way of silencing them and warning off others like them. It would not have had the same effect if they were just locked up, it doesn't silence them.
    You can silence someone completely by imprisoning too. In fact killing them brings more attention to them which, if anything, has the opposite effect of incentive.

    And silence them from saying what anyway? You don't think everything they had to say wasnt said in court?

  6. #346
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post
    You can silence someone completely by imprisoning too. In fact killing them brings more attention to them which, if anything, has the opposite effect of incentive.

    And silence them from saying what anyway? You don't think everything they had to say wasnt said in court?
    Imprisoning them doesn't silence them, they can still communicate, propagandise and organise. Killing them rather stops that. It is also a greater warning to others.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 12-05-08 at 11:40 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  7. #347
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Imprisoning them doesn't silence them, they can still communicate, propagandise and organise. Killing them rather stops that. It is also a greater warning to others.
    Killing them draws greater attention than imprisoning them. And what could they have said in prison that they couldn't say during the trail?

    "No but srsy guys we didn't do it! you can let us out noa plox?"

  8. #348
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post
    Killing them draws greater attention than imprisoning them.
    Not really, if it is an injustice it is still going to get reported.
    And what could they have said in prison that they couldn't say during the trail?
    You know trials are not a place where you can just make speeches on your political, economic and social views right? If you challenge a speeding ticket they don't give you half an hour to convince the court of the merits of anarcho-syndicalism.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  9. #349
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Not really, if it is an injustice it is still going to get reported.
    If it's getting reported either way then why is it so significant to the difference between capital punishment and life imprisonment?

    You know trials are not a place where you can just make speeches on your political, economic and social views right?
    But what would they say related to whether or not they are innocent that they wouldn't have said during the trial?

    And maybe this was true during the cold war or whatever, but we don't live in a society in which a government with access to capital punishment is resulting in people being charged of murder because of extreme political ramblings. If that were true, Noam Chompsky would have been executed by now.

    If you challenge a speeding ticket they don't give you half an hour to convince the court of the merits of anarcho-syndicalism.
    But this isn't about thier political beliefs, this is about thier ability to voice thier innocence. Anything they could have said to convince the jury they were innocent would have been said before the conviction anyway, so its irrelevent.

  10. #350
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    I'am begining to notice every thread Wexx and I both post in, within a few pages we are monopolizing it.

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