View Poll Results: Should Capital Punishment be supported?

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  • It should be supported in both principle and practice.

    43 47.78%
  • Yes in principle, but not in practice due to the ambiguity of social bias.

    14 15.56%
  • It should be opposed both in principle and practice.

    33 36.67%
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Thread: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

  1. #271
    Student Makedde's Avatar
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    Re: Particulars

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    I'm looking at the sites still and I appreciate all the research but what if states with the death penalty have it because they have more crime already? any thoughts on that?
    Hmm...if those States with the death penalty were to abolish it, would the murder rates go down or would they rise? Only then would we know exactly what effect the death penalty would have.

  2. #272
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    Re: Particulars

    Quote Originally Posted by Cristina View Post
    Remember you were arguing that the death penalty was a deterant. Haven't I proven that it isn't?


    deterrence



    edit: "The most striking protection of innocent life has been seen in Texas, which executes more murderers than any other state. According to JFA (Justice for All), the Texas murder rate in 1991 was 15.3 per 100,000. By 1999, it had fallen to 6.1 -- a drop of 60 percent. Within Texas, the most aggressive death penalty prosecutions are in Harris County (the Houston area). Since the resumption of executions in 1982, the annual number of Harris County murders has plummeted from 701 to 241 -- a 72 percent decrease."
    Last edited by emdash; 12-02-08 at 09:24 PM.

  3. #273
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    Re: Particulars

    Quote Originally Posted by Cristina View Post
    Hmm...if those States with the death penalty were to abolish it, would the murder rates go down or would they rise? Only then would we know exactly what effect the death penalty would have.
    it does kind of seem impossible to tell either way at this point. I'm going to keep looking though.

  4. #274
    User sotang's Avatar
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by AKLee View Post
    Okay then, why not a life sentence as an alternative to all crimes that warrant capital punishment. The criminal is denied certain rights to a significant extent, it achieves the goals that is expected: the criminal is punished. Why must you go the extra step to remove something as powerful and fundamental as life? It is not so much the measure of the criminal's crime that is the point of contention here, rather, it is the authority of the court and the executioner to take this man's life. Do you see no hypocrisy in the system here?

    Levels of social tolerance toward certain issues are changing every single day; in 1607, the persecution of people of Sub Saharan African descent as slaves were seen as something tolerable. The maltreatment of a black man then would not warrant as heavy a punishment as it would have now. Then, who are you to say that we got it right this time? What if in 400 years, the traficking of drugs were seen as something indecent, yet not unacceptable enough to warrant the death penalty? Why prosecute criminals on the basis of contemporary social boundaries, especially if it concerns something as basic, as constitutional, as constitutive, as fundamental as life?
    well i must say , some of you people here don't get what is going through the criminal mind. hmm...i think i can just kill 100 people in the most brutal way to get a kick then have someone pay my way through a easy life., ARE YOU TAKING CRAZY PILLS!!, i mean if there is not enough evidence to say he did it for sure, life, rather than death sounds good, at least till they get the evidence to send him down the toobs. VERILY VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THOU SHALT DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU. THOU SHALT NOT KILL. don't forget that we live in a world WERE THE ONLY PUNISHMENT WE UNDERSTAND IS CAPITOL. WHO CARES WHAT THAT CRIMINAL DIES. HIS DEATH KEEPS MAYBE HUNDREDS MORE THINKING TWICE BEFORE SAYING, I FEEL LIKE GETTING AWAY WITH MURDER TODAY., then you have to remove them, . CRIMINALS KNOW THAT THEY ARE SIGNING THEIR LIFE AWAY WHEN THEY DO THESE CRIMES. END OF STORY GOODBYE LOGIC.
    Last edited by sotang; 12-02-08 at 09:30 PM.
    just once, i would like to see the human race do something other than argue that a 1+1 really =3 so that we can all do the harder equations.

  5. #275
    Student Makedde's Avatar
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    Re: Particulars

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    it does kind of seem impossible to tell either way at this point. I'm going to keep looking though.
    I can see you have done some research. Hopefully we can find somewhere we can agree.

  6. #276
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    so what you're saying is, anyone who advocates unjust executions deserves an unjust execution.

    uh-oh.
    Well, to be honest, I was being rhetorical to make a point, of course. You knew that, of course, but decided to play the 'pretend it's meant literally' card as I knew someone would.

    However, I am unsure. There is a part of me that feels that if someone vigorously advocates for a specific system, and shows a callous disregard toward the plight of those who will become innocent victims of that system, that they ought to 'walk a mile in those people's shoes' so that they can better understand just what they are advocating.

    So, in the end, I'd absolutely relish his being accused, sentenced, be convinced he was going to be put to death and be exonerated on his millionth appeal. I would find that satisfactory. I think that would adequately teach the value of our cautious system to him... don't you agree?

  7. #277
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Well, to be honest, I was being rhetorical to make a point, of course. You knew that, of course, but decided to play the 'pretend it's meant literally' card as I knew someone would.

    However, I am unsure. There is a part of me that feels that if someone vigorously advocates for a specific system, and shows a callous disregard toward the plight of those who will become innocent victims of that system, that they ought to 'walk a mile in those people's shoes' so that they can better understand just what they are advocating.

    So, in the end, I'd absolutely relish his being accused, sentenced, be convinced he was going to be put to death and be exonerated on his millionth appeal. I would find that satisfactory. I think that would adequately teach the value of our cautious system to him... don't you agree?
    i say we have a simple system, it works, the death sentence should resume, but the court system should be improved to make sure the right criminals receive the right punishment for their crime. agree?
    just once, i would like to see the human race do something other than argue that a 1+1 really =3 so that we can all do the harder equations.

  8. #278
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    Re: Is Capital Punishment Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    There is a part of me that feels that if someone vigorously advocates for a specific system, and shows a callous disregard toward the plight of those who will become innocent victims of that system, that they ought to 'walk a mile in those people's shoes' so that they can better understand just what they are advocating.
    his approach is rational and impersonal. yours is compassionate and humanitarian. both are necessary in a comprehensive analysis of the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    So, in the end, I'd absolutely relish his being accused, sentenced, be convinced he was going to be put to death and be exonerated on his millionth appeal. I would find that satisfactory. I think that would adequately teach the value of our cautious system to him... don't you agree?
    I don't know, he seems very stubborn. it might convince him that he is right, when he sees how much money went into his million appeals with the end result being a warped old man who has spent most of his life on death row.

  9. #279
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    Re: Particulars

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    Why does your study have no mention of other factors? That sounds very questionable.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  10. #280
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    Re: Particulars

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post


    Wesley Lowe (author) on AuthorsDen

    Wesley Lowe - The Necromancer Wars

    This is not an independent study - the website is from a novelist and graduate in Physics. I think an US Federal Govt or FBI website review or even an Academic source would have been a better source.

    You might have been better with a recognised Academic paper by a pro-death penalty source like Ernest van den Haag

    Here are the argument and response by him recorded at IAState

    Argument againstMiscarriages of justice: Innocent people have been executed in the past and it is likely to happen again.



    Response:

    1. All human activities sometimes cost the lives of innocent bystanders, but we still do these activities.
    2. IE more innocent people killed by car crashes than by mistaken executions of innocent people, yet we never argue that there ought not to be cars.


    Argument againstDeterrence: There is no conclusive evidence that capital punishment is a deterrent.


    Reponse:

    1. Haag thinks that even if there were no deterrent value he would argue in favor of capital punishment from a retribution view.
    2. It doesn’t have to deter every one in order to deter someone. And capital punishment is worthwhile even if it just deters a few potential murderers.
    3. It is a better deterrent than prison because of its finality.
    4. It is not worth saving the lives of murders because their execution might not deter others.
    Even here, he has no proof to offer that the death penalty deters anyone else from killing.

    Take a look at the UN comparative study instead to give you a better picture.

    US - many states have a death penalty yet your homicide rate per 100,000 of the population in 1998 was 6.9. similar study in the UK where the Death Penalty was only for high treason and sabotage during war (and has now been abolished in full) was 0.8 per 100,000 of the population in 1999 - and that is even with the possibility of this HEUNI study on statistical variation due to different counting methods included.

    If you want reviews - Amnesty USA published the results of a 2000 New York Times comparison of homicide in US states with the death penalty against US states without the death penalty and guess where the rates were higher?

    A September 2000 New York Times survey found that during the last 20 years, the homicide rate in states with the death penalty has been 48 to 101 percent higher than in states without the death penalty.
    Even then however, it is wrong to just look at US rates or rates in any one country as a guide to whether the Death Penalty works as a deterrent or not - you have to look at International Comparative Studies of similar countries like that by the UN.

    However, I guess the independence of many unhelpful UN reports is another big reason that the UN is so unpopular in the US. Trouble is - if you want to rubbish Amnesty - you have to rubbish the New York Times study too.. trouble is the same facts came out of the FBI study.

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