View Poll Results: Do you have a right to NOT join a union

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Thread: A right to NOT join a union?

  1. #71
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    And anyone has the right not to associate. What they don't have a right to do is work at a specific job. If that specific job has requirements that they do not want to partake in, tough **** for them. They need to look for a different job.
    I imagine that if a black person working for some company was, as part of his job, required to be a dues-paying, participating member of the KKK, there'd be a court (and a untold number for pro-union people) that would disagree with you.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-24-08 at 05:30 PM.

  2. #72
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I imagine that if a black person working for some company was, as part of his job, required to be a dues-paying, participating member of the KKK, there'd be a court (and a untold number for pro-union people) that would disagree with you.
    Of course the obvious fact is that the KKK is not remotely close to comparable to a Union except that they are both "groups".
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  3. #73
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Of course the obvious fact is that the KKK is not remotely close to comparable to a Union except that they are both "groups".
    According to your argument, that's irrelevant.

  4. #74
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    According to your argument, that's irrelevant.
    Notr according to MY argument. Maybe according to a miscommunication of my argument.

    When you asked beofre about owning a gun, I repsonded that if it was a job requirement, it would be OK. This is like being a Policeman in soime places. My friend is a cop and he had to purhase his own sidearm. That is because the job requires him to have a handgun.


    The Union is actually job dependent. It ceases to exist without the jobs. There is no occupation that dictates the KKK's existence.

    One is related to the work, even if that relationship is contrived by the Union itself, the other group is totally unrelated to the job and thus it cannot be construed as a reasonable job requirement.

    The comparison of saying that an employer requiring membership in the KKK (non-job related group) to an employer requiring memebrship in the Union (a job related group) is incorrect because the two groups are non-equivilant in terms of the discussion.



    Now, as far as my actual opinion of the KKK thing goes, I'm inclined to say that the employer should be allowed to require membership in the KKK for his employees if he wants to, so long as the rule applies to all employees and he doesn't discriminate in the hiring process based on race.

    He should not be allowed to make the rule applicable to some but not others.

    If a potential black employee decides not to work there because of that requiremetn, that is their choice. I'm sure that many white people would opt not to work there either and that due to the abundance of sub-par employees, the employer would either be forced to pay more wages to lure the employees in or he/she would need to get rid of the policy.

    That's my thinking on the matter.
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  5. #75
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    When you asked beofre about owning a gun, I repsonded that if it was a job requirement, it would be OK. This is like being a Policeman in soime places. My friend is a cop and he had to purhase his own sidearm. That is because the job requires him to have a handgun.
    Just to niggle a little, there are many, many jobs within a police department that do not require you to carry a gun. In fact, there are many jobs in uniform where carrying a weapon are not necessary or required. Someone who wanted to belong to the police department but didn't want to carry a gun could still do so. However, there are many industries where you simply cannot work in any capacity if you do not join a union. Take Hollywood for example. You simply cannot make movies in Hollywood without belonging to some sort of union. Heck, I don't think you can even pick up trash off the back lots without joining the "Backlot Trash Pickers Union". It simply cannot be done.
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  6. #76
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Just to niggle a little, there are many, many jobs within a police department that do not require you to carry a gun. In fact, there are many jobs in uniform where carrying a weapon are not necessary or required. Someone who wanted to belong to the police department but didn't want to carry a gun could still do so. However, there are many industries where you simply cannot work in any capacity if you do not join a union. Take Hollywood for example. You simply cannot make movies in Hollywood without belonging to some sort of union. Heck, I don't think you can even pick up trash off the back lots without joining the "Backlot Trash Pickers Union". It simply cannot be done.
    You can make movies without being in a union. Indy films do it all the time.

    Youtube is full of people who do it. Where's the issue? Just because the odds of it being succesful are dramaticaly reduced doesn't mean ****, the choice is there.

    This comes back to my claim about nobody havign a right to a specific job.
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  7. #77
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Notr according to MY argument. Maybe according to a miscommunication of my argument.

    When you asked beofre about owning a gun, I repsonded that if it was a job requirement, it would be OK. This is like being a Policeman in soime places. My friend is a cop and he had to purhase his own sidearm. That is because the job requires him to have a handgun.
    Fair enough -- but that's not what I had in mind when I put forth the idea.


    The Union is actually job dependent. It ceases to exist without the jobs. There is no occupation that dictates the KKK's existence.

    One is related to the work, even if that relationship is contrived by the Union itself, the other group is totally unrelated to the job and thus it cannot be construed as a reasonable job requirement.

    The comparison of saying that an employer requiring membership in the KKK (non-job related group) to an employer requiring memebrship in the Union (a job related group) is incorrect because the two groups are non-equivilant in terms of the discussion.
    Suppse that the requirement to join the KKK WAS a job-related requirement.
    Then...?

  8. #78
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Fair enough -- but that's not what I had in mind when I put forth the idea.
    Just curious, what did you have in mind exactly? I'm not sure if I'm on the same page, necessarily.



    Suppse that the requirement to join the KKK WAS a job-related requirement.
    Then...?
    Well, in that hypothetical, I still think the person is being given a choice (unless of course the KKK wouldn't allow a black member to join, then the choice is being removed and it's a problem).

    My thinking is that people can take the job or not take the job knowing that the memebrship is a requirement. If they choose to take the job, they they also choose to join the KKK.

    The choice isn't made for them.

    If it's an aftger the fatc thing, where they have the job for years and they are beign literally forced to join (any group, Union, KKK, etc), then it's a different story altogether. In that case, the employee should have a right of refusal and receive no penalties for that refusal.

    My argument only applies if the choice exists at any point along the path to emplyment.
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  9. #79
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Just curious, what did you have in mind exactly? I'm not sure if I'm on the same page, necessarily.
    Just a general requirement -- to work here, you need to own a gun.

    Well, in that hypothetical, I still think the person is being given a choice (unless of course the KKK wouldn't allow a black member to join, then the choice is being removed and it's a problem).
    And, do you suppose that a court (pick one) would agree?

  10. #80
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Just a general requirement -- to work here, you need to own a gun.
    Gotcha. I'd still be fine with that.


    And, do you suppose that a court (pick one) would agree?
    The KKK example would probably not fly, but I'd guess that the gun thing would be OK in the right local region.

    I myself would be in favor of the business owner having the right to choose to make Union membership mandatory or not.
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