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A right to NOT join a union?

Do you have a right to NOT join a union


  • Total voters
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They also set the possibility for a minimum standard to exist. In a non-union environment, even if every worker busts their ass, the employer can just dump more work on them and keep raising their standards for raises to urnealistic levels (look at commissioned retail employment; the bar always raises on sales.)

With a union, you can realistically get together with your boss and determine, definitively, just what a days work SHOULD consist of. There is no great moral evil in that. Work can and should be demanding and challenging, but it shouldn't be increased in volume just on some vague principle about work ethic.
I have worked in many non-union places that could have used a union-the way they were intended. Unfortunately greedy employers are often being chosed as a lesser of two evils. The quality of unions pretty much sucks. Again few of you would dare tackle the issue of unions forcing me to contribute to political causes I don't believe in. That's because there is no defense for that. Put simply, unions have ruined the unions. It's too bad. I once worked for the world's largest meat packers, IBP inc. They were notoriously horrible to their employees-I even witnessed some thing that were downright criminal. But when it came to a vote to unionize, it was voted down big-time, with no coercing by the company-they didn't have too. The Union, the UFCW, did all the coercing and turned people off so much that they accepted the abuse from IBP over the "benefits" of unionizing with the UFCW. Until unions re-invent themselves and clean up, right to work is in no danger.
 
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I have worked in many non-union places that could have used a union-the way they were intended. Unfortunately greedy employers are often being chosed as a lesser of two evils. The quality of unions pretty much sucks. Again few of you would dare tackle the issue of unions forcing me to contribute to political causes I don't believe in. That's because there is no defense for that. Put simply, unions have ruined the unions. It's too bad. I once worked for the world's largest meat packers, IBP inc. They were notoriously horrible to their employees-I even witnessed some thing that were downright criminal. But when it came to a vote to unionize, it was voted down big-time, with no coercing by the company-they didn't have too. The Union, the UFCW, did all the coercing and turned people off so much that they accepted the abuse from IBP over the "benefits" of unionizing with the UFCW. Until unions re-invent themselves and clean up, right to work is in no danger.

Well hold on... my union solicited donations specifically for compaign contribution that were extra. Their own bi-laws prevent them from contributing just out of dues. And again...they've been good to me, un-beligerant, profitable for me, and I don't think they've ruined anyone's opinion so far as I know.

But every paycheck some of my coworkers whine and whine about their dues. Perhaps my opinion is too colored by what's close to home to appreciate what you have to say about other unions...I sort of assumed people were just whining in the same way my coworkers do.
 
frazier991 said:
I have worked in many non-union places that could have used a union-the way they were intended. Unfortunately greedy employers are often being chosed as a lesser of two evils. The quality of unions pretty much sucks. Again few of you would dare tackle the issue of unions forcing me to contribute to political causes I don't believe in. That's because there is no defense for that. Put simply, unions have ruined the unions. It's too bad. I once worked for the world's largest meat packers, IBP inc. They were notoriously horrible to their employees-I even witnessed some thing that were downright criminal. But when it came to a vote to unionize, it was voted down big-time, with no coercing by the company-they didn't have too. The Union, the UFCW, did all the coercing and turned people off so much that they accepted the abuse from IBP over the "benefits" of unionizing with the UFCW. Until unions re-invent themselves and clean up, right to work is in no danger.

Workers have always been sandwiched between the bosses on the one side and the bureaucrats on the other trying to squeeze out as much as they can. This is nothing new at all.
 
Workers have always been sandwiched between the bosses on the one side and the bureaucrats on the other trying to squeeze out as much as they can. This is nothing new at all.

Unions ARE the workers though...they don't spring up out of federal or state bureaucracies somehow...
 
Unions ARE the workers though...they don't spring up out of federal or state bureaucracies somehow...

That would be nice but it's often not true. Most big unions have absolutely no stake in an individual company, they are run by a national organization that collects dues and spends them as they see fit. Unions don't spring out of government bureaucracies, they spring out of national union bureaucracies.
 
That would be nice but it's often not true. Most big unions have absolutely no stake in an individual company, they are run by a national organization that collects dues and spends them as they see fit. Unions don't spring out of government bureaucracies, they spring out of national union bureaucracies.

The larger ones may be far-reaching, but all of them came out of an industry somewhere. There is no chicken-and-egg question about where unions come from.
 
Well hold on... my union solicited donations specifically for compaign contribution that were extra. Their own bi-laws prevent them from contributing just out of dues. And again...they've been good to me, un-beligerant, profitable for me, and I don't think they've ruined anyone's opinion so far as I know.

But every paycheck some of my coworkers whine and whine about their dues. Perhaps my opinion is too colored by what's close to home to appreciate what you have to say about other unions...I sort of assumed people were just whining in the same way my coworkers do.[/QUOTE Unions DO ENDORSE CAUSES AND AND CANDIDATES! They get their money from YOU! I'm glad you're in a good union. I just wish that were the norm. I've been victimized by some corporations. They shouldn't even be allowed to sollicit donations.
 
Well hold on... my union solicited donations specifically for compaign contribution that were extra. Their own bi-laws prevent them from contributing just out of dues. And again...they've been good to me, un-beligerant, profitable for me, and I don't think they've ruined anyone's opinion so far as I know.

But every paycheck some of my coworkers whine and whine about their dues. Perhaps my opinion is too colored by what's close to home to appreciate what you have to say about other unions...I sort of assumed people were just whining in the same way my coworkers do.[/QUOTE Unions DO ENDORSE CAUSES AND AND CANDIDATES! They get their money from YOU! I'm glad you're in a good union. I just wish that were the norm. I've been victimized by some corporations. They shouldn't even be allowed to sollicit donations.

Fair enough. I'm all for better unions. Don't think it will happen until the american worker wields a little more power. Job relocation has been the last nail in the coffin for that as near as I can tell.
 
Fair enough. I'm all for better unions. Don't think it will happen until the american worker wields a little more power. Job relocation has been the last nail in the coffin for that as near as I can tell.
My apologies to Agent Gray. The way I posted my comments, came out in the blue which might make people think they are your comments. Didn't mean to do that
 
Agent Grey said:
Unions ARE the workers though...they don't spring up out of federal or state bureaucracies somehow...

I was referring to union bureaucrats, not government bureaucrats. The government is on the same side of the bosses, so if you want me to clarify you can put bosses/the government on one side instead of just "bosses".

Fair enough. I'm all for better unions. Don't think it will happen until the american worker wields a little more power. Job relocation has been the last nail in the coffin for that as near as I can tell.

Often I hear people blame unions and union workers for relocations. For example, if a company says that they will relocate a factory unless the workers satisfy certain demands (pay cuts, losing certain benefits, etc...) and the union rejects these demands. The company ends up relocating the factory and people blame workers for not accepting those demands.

It is hard times, isn't it? Shouldn't everyone have to cut back? What makes these union workers think they shouldn't have to? What a bunch of ungrateful leeches, right?!

Of course not! While the big wigs at the top make seven figure salaries with comparable bonuses, why should they have to accept pay cuts? The reality is that the reason the plant moved was not because the workers rejected the company's demands, but because the workers were not organized enough to fight for their jobs and win.
 
Fair enough. I'm all for better unions. Don't think it will happen until the american worker wields a little more power. Job relocation has been the last nail in the coffin for that as near as I can tell.

What makes you think the worker doesn't wield enough power? The worker is actually in a better negotiating position than the company. If the worker decides to go work somewhere else, they lose nothing unless they decide to take a lower paying job, and likely can even land themselves a better paying job.

The company, on the other hand, has to pay the people in HR to process each new employee, then they have to train them, costing them not only the money they are paying the new hire, but also the money they are paying the person training the new hire.

In the end, it generally ends up costing them more than it costs the worker, putting the worker in a position of relative strength.

Most workers are just too non-confrontational to demand a raise, and too lazy to go looking for other job opportunities on their time off.
 
I absolutely, positively, without a doubt and with full conviction believe people should not be forced to join unions.......but a "right?" I don't know about that.
 
Yes, you have a right to not join a union. No one is going around door to door forcing folks to join a union. However, employers have the right to NOT hire you if you refuse to join a union. You don't have a right to employment at any job.

On the issue of unions overall, its a tough one for me. History shows us what life was like before unions. I don't think anyone wants to return to that or anything remotely resembling that. We do have some laws in place that prevent a full scale regression, but I still believe without unions we'd see significant reversals. Employers self interest dictates that they get cheapest efficient labor they can. And most laborers are easily replaceable, meaning an individual worker with no union has very little negotiating power. I mean seriously, how many of us are so skilled and unique that our employer would struggle to find a suitable replacement if we quit? Most of us would probably have dozens of qualified applicants ready to fill our job if we left. Unions give workers leverage to negotiate better wages and benefits.

That said, unions today have gone beyond simply establishing a fair and decent wage and benefits for workers. Many unions have forced companies to accept strict regulations on who can do what work. They want job security for life. Unstustainable retirement benefits and pensions. And are often the crutch used by the worse and laziest employees.

For those who decry unions, I see your points. But what kind of world do you think we would have if we abolished unions? Or used right to work and other regulations to break union influence and leverage?
 
Unstustainable retirement benefits and pensions.
Unsustainable because and only because the thought of the capitalist at the head of the corporation holding off on buying that sports franchise or airline or estate doesn't even enter the conversation.
 
The larger ones may be far-reaching, but all of them came out of an industry somewhere. There is no chicken-and-egg question about where unions come from.

Sure, at one point they all started small, but today, they're massive monsters that couldn't care less about the health of any individual company, the union becomes a business unto itself, existing not to take care of workers but to gather as much membership money as possible. It's one think to have an individual workplace form a union, that union ceases to exist of the workplace closes, it's another to let a mega-union who doesn't care about anyone come in.
 
Cephus said:
Sure, at one point they all started small, but today, they're massive monsters that couldn't care less about the health of any individual company, the union becomes a business unto itself, existing not to take care of workers but to gather as much membership money as possible. It's one think to have an individual workplace form a union, that union ceases to exist of the workplace closes, it's another to let a mega-union who doesn't care about anyone come in.

While I agree that union bureaucrats are leeches on the workers whom they are supposed to represent, and in countless instances have sided against the workers in reaching a "compromise" with the bosses (which generally amounts to the workers doing the compromising and the company doing little to nothing), I disagree with the idea of company unions completely. The entire point of unions is to organize the workers in effectively being able to fight for their interests, and this is only possible ultimately in industrial unions. The entire history of the international union movement attests to the strength that workers can have when organized industrially and the power they can wield in their collective action, and the weakness of company/craft unions that simply divide/fragment the workers. See the explosive growth of the CIO as the first large fighting industrial union as opposed to the craft-unionism of the AFL as a good example of this.
 
While I agree that union bureaucrats are leeches on the workers whom they are supposed to represent, and in countless instances have sided against the workers in reaching a "compromise" with the bosses (which generally amounts to the workers doing the compromising and the company doing little to nothing), I disagree with the idea of company unions completely. The entire point of unions is to organize the workers in effectively being able to fight for their interests, and this is only possible ultimately in industrial unions. The entire history of the international union movement attests to the strength that workers can have when organized industrially and the power they can wield in their collective action, and the weakness of company/craft unions that simply divide/fragment the workers. See the explosive growth of the CIO as the first large fighting industrial union as opposed to the craft-unionism of the AFL as a good example of this.

Unfortunately, national unions have little interest in local workers. If they unionize a shop and the owner decides he can't afford to stay in business and goes under, the union really doesn't care, they can always get more paying members. Business-specific unions at least have a vested interest in the health of both the workers and the business. If the business goes under, so does the union and therefore they're less likely to make absurd demands, like the national unions do, because they know that their paychecks rest on not screwing over the owner.
 
Cephus said:
Unfortunately, national unions have little interest in local workers. If they unionize a shop and the owner decides he can't afford to stay in business and goes under, the union really doesn't care, they can always get more paying members.

Yes but as I said this is because (as I have already said) as the unions have become more bureaucratic and as the rank-and-file have lost control, the shift of the unions has been towards preserving those bureaucrats' positions while at the same time keeping the workers from any real fighting action for their rights through collusion between the union bureaucrats, the bosses and the government.

Business-specific unions at least have a vested interest in the health of both the workers and the business. If the business goes under, so does the union and therefore they're less likely to make absurd demands, like the national unions do, because they know that their paychecks rest on not screwing over the owner.

I don't think that unions should ever be concerned with the survival of a business. The point of the union is to defend the workers, not to make compromises that benefit the bosses at the expense of the workers.
 
Yes but as I said this is because (as I have already said) as the unions have become more bureaucratic and as the rank-and-file have lost control, the shift of the unions has been towards preserving those bureaucrats' positions while at the same time keeping the workers from any real fighting action for their rights through collusion between the union bureaucrats, the bosses and the government.



I don't think that unions should ever be concerned with the survival of a business. The point of the union is to defend the workers, not to make compromises that benefit the bosses at the expense of the workers.
You don't think unions should ever be concerned with the survival of a business?..........................I couldn't have asked for a better post to promote the right to work! You see,....survival of the business means survival of jobs..........well, I'm not sure I can say more than this idiotic statement so I'll just quote it again....read it and really think about what this person just said.........."I don't think that unions should ever be concerned with the survival of a business." This is why unions are dying-and that's too bad.....:(
 
frazier991 said:
You don't think unions should ever be concerned with the survival of a business?..........................I couldn't have asked for a better post to promote the right to work! You see,....survival of the business means survival of jobs..........well, I'm not sure I can say more than this idiotic statement so I'll just quote it again....read it and really think about what this person just said.........."I don't think that unions should ever be concerned with the survival of a business." This is why unions are dying-and that's too bad....

No, unions are dying because of their increased bureaucracy and lack of representation of their rank-and-file.

Unions should not be concerned with the survival of a business for reasons previously stated; if a company threatens to move a factory overseas, it is because they want to put their burdens on the backs of the workers while retaining their own level of comfort. You don't see large executives take significant pay cuts or make such sacrifices in order to "save the business". They'll just take it out of the pockets of the ordinary worker and be done with it. They can't be bothered to care about us so why should we bother to care about them?
 
No, unions are dying because of their increased bureaucracy and lack of representation of their rank-and-file.

Unions should not be concerned with the survival of a business for reasons previously stated; if a company threatens to move a factory overseas, it is because they want to put their burdens on the backs of the workers while retaining their own level of comfort. You don't see large executives take significant pay cuts or make such sacrifices in order to "save the business". They'll just take it out of the pockets of the ordinary worker and be done with it. They can't be bothered to care about us so why should we bother to care about them?
Well it's the whole us vs them attitudes that has worked so well so far. Both labor and corporate have alot of the same things at stake.. How can you not see that good business is good for both. Your advesarial attitude is precisely why unions are losing power..............who cares about the success or failure of the compnay that pays my paycheck.....REALLY!!!!!!!!! OMG check this guy out folks. This guy truly represents unions more honestly than anyone I've seen!!! I could not have possibly made my case better than this guy unwittingly did.....:rofl
 
Well it's the whole us vs them attitudes that has worked so well so far. Both labor and corporate have alot of the same things at stake.. How can you not see that good business is good for both. Your advesarial attitude is precisely why unions are losing power..............who cares about the success or failure of the compnay that pays my paycheck.....REALLY!!!!!!!!! OMG check this guy out folks. This guy truly represents unions more honestly than anyone I've seen!!! I could not have possibly made my case better than this guy unwittingly did.....:rofl


Maybe because this guy is right. Unions know what a companies profits and assets are. If a company is a small start up company the union does not say ok we want 100 bucks an hour with 364 paid vacation days. This is where the rank and file feel that a union may not be looking out for their best interests because a new contract may actually be very low in wages and weak in benefits. Lots of members do not want those jobs but would rather work the stronger contracts with better benefits and pay with well established companies.

The unions and the companies sit down and discuss the future of both on a regular basis. Many of the training funds etc that the companies pay into the companies also have a say in how that training money is spent. In my union the union can not just select a training school at will. There is a committee that has a company representative as part of its membership.
Our pension, health and welfare all have company representatives on the various committees.

If a company actually has the cash to relocate overseas it is not poor and going broke. It has investment capital. Most modern day union leadership is college educated in labor relations and business management. These days the unions themselves have to operate as a business.

Moe
 
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In many places, such as school systems or places of higher education, if a union is in place, employees must join it, regardless as to the preference of the employee.

Do you have a right to NOT join a union?

Why/why not?

Who in their right mind would WANT to?:roll: Anyone that takes the time to Read about the History of Union Corruption, would avoid them like the Plague.

Page after Page: Organized Labor Corruption - Ask.com Search
 
After this recent economic collapse do you think that the coperations are not corrupt? Our entire society is corrupt.

Moe

"Our Entire Society" is Corrupt?:roll: You voted for B.O.,,,didn't you Moe?:lol:
 
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