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A right to NOT join a union?

Do you have a right to NOT join a union


  • Total voters
    61
In a private-sector employment agreement, you have the "right" to whatever you're able to contract for.

Sure, that's true of some companies. However, if the company runs under the shingle "a union shop", many will not allow you to work there if you're not in the union.
 
Is this relevant?

It certainly explains your flippant attitude towards those workers who may be forced into taking jobs that don't offer fair compensation and fair representation. Yes. Your "well just quit if you don't like it" sort of ignores reality in the work place; IMO anyway.

Fair compensation is whatever I feel is fair. If I don't feel it's fair, then I don't accept the job... or I accept it and continue looking for something better. Either way, I deserve what I accept.

Again, you are ignoring reality in the work place.

Why shouldn't people be subjected to the threat of firing? Employees should KNOW full well they can and will be replaced if they don't perform up to the company's standards. Employers should fire anyone who doesn't perform up to their standards. Without threat of firing, why would anyone attempt to do a good job at all?

Dismissal for due cause is fine. Creating a hostile work environment is not.

That would only be bad if an employee was forced to work somewhere. People are NOT forced to work for others, slavery was abolished. Employers should be perfectly free to fire anyone for any reason they wish.

Again ignoring the reality in the work place.

So they keep them from having to think and act for themselves and take responsibility for their own choices by restricting the rights and choices of private business owners?

Employers need to pay a fair wage, offer a fair benefits package and compensate their employees. If they can't then they shouldn't start a business since they make their profit off the sweat of their employees.

Exactly. The WORKERS fought for what they wanted.

Not wanted. Deserved. And that was accomplished through the collective action of? You guessed it. UNIONS!!!

What shortcomings are you talking about? I prefer working for places with lax policies as opposed to places with stringent policies either created of their own volition or forced on them by the government. I'm not sure what shortcomings you were talking about.

You are one of the few who can probably detemine the environment you will work in. Others have no choice because either the options are limited to them through lack of employment or lack of education. Count yourself lucky. And without unions and gov't regulation we'd still be in sweat-shops riv. but methinks you already know that.

For instance... here in Cali apparently employees HAVE to take a lunch. It's actually ****ing required by law. It's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. I don't WANT to take lunches, why the hell should I have to? The last place I worked started insisting that I take these stupid lunches which meant that I had to stay at work 30 minutes longer. Yeah, thanks "unions" for ****ing up my day and not allowing me the freedom and responsibility to decide for myself if I want to take a ****ing lunch. Now I get to work for 8.5 hours instead of 8. Yippie.

Well, then quit and move where you are not forced to take a lunch or are not offered a lunch break.
:2wave:

No thanks, I can think for myself. I can decide for myself whether or not I want to work somewhere, whether or not my pay is adequate, whether or not I think I'm being mistreated. I don't need some other group of people to come and try and "help" me by only making things worse.

I'm happy for you. But, again, you are ignoring the reality in the work place.
 
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Sure, that's true of some companies. However, if the company runs under the shingle "a union shop", many will not allow you to work there if you're not in the union.

The point is, your "rights" are whatever you can successfully contract for. If you are somehow able to contract for employment without joining the union, or as a condition of your employment, the company rejects the union, then you do have that "right."
 
It certainly explains your flippant attitude towards those workers who may be forced into taking jobs that don't offer fair compensation and fair representation. Yes. Your "well just quit if you don't like it" sort of ignores reality in the work place; IMO anyway.
Are you under the assumption I was born making the salary I make? (which, btw, my salary is $0 at the moment since I am no longer working)

Again, you are ignoring reality in the work place.

...

Again ignoring the reality in the work place.
I'm ignoring reality because... supposedly I've never worked?

Employers need to pay a fair wage, offer a fair benefits package and compensate their employees. If they can't then they shouldn't start a business since they make their profit off the sweat of their employees.
"Fair" is whatever an employee will accept.

You are one of the few who can probably detemine the environment you will work in. Others have no choice because either the options are limited to them through lack of employment or lack of education. Count yourself lucky. And without unions and gov't regulation we'd still be in sweat-shops riv. but methinks you already know that.
Again, you think I was born making a decent salary? Or do you think perhaps I've waitressed in some ****holes, bartended in some crappy places, and hell.... even been a prostitute for awhile? I'll give you a hint: I wasn't born making a salary.



Well, then quit and move where you are not forced to take a lunch or are not offered a lunch break.
:2wave:
I said "the last place I worked". I no longer work there. And, I'm in the process of moving out of this god forsaken state. I'll be back home in less than a month.

If I am not happy with my working conditions, I find another job.

I'm happy for you. But, again, you are ignoring the reality in the work place.
So the work I've done the past 20 years isn't reality?
 
Are you under the assumption I was born making the salary I make? (which, btw, my salary is $0 at the moment since I am no longer working)

No. I had no delusion about that riv.

I'm ignoring reality because... supposedly I've never worked?

No but you're insulated from the reality of those who are scraping by and under the misconception they can just quit and find another job if they don't like the one they have.

"Fair" is whatever an employee will accept.

Sure. In the mind of a capitalist concentrating on one thing and one thing only, profit.

In the mind of a worker fair is pay commensurate with the job, the sacrifices they make, the amount of work performed and what is truly fair compensation.

Again, you think I was born making a decent salary? Or do you think perhaps I've waitressed in some ****holes, bartended in some crappy places, and hell.... even been a prostitute for awhile? I'll give you a hint: I wasn't born making a salary.

Never thought that at all. Doesn't mean you're not ignoring the reality of the work place though. Which you are.

I said "the last place I worked". I no longer work there. And, I'm in the process of moving out of this god forsaken state. I'll be back home in less than a month.

If I am not happy with my working conditions, I find another job.

And you are fortunate that you are capable of doing that. I am too but that does in no way mean all people, all workers, are able or capable of doing the same thing riv.

So the work I've done the past 20 years isn't reality?

Sure, it's your reality. But your understanding of the work place is not since your understanding is, obviously, tilted towards the employer and their profit goals and not the employee and their needs.

Gawd I sound like a communist but I want you to know I'm not. Really. :shock:
 
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The point is, your "rights" are whatever you can successfully contract for. If you are somehow able to contract for employment without joining the union, or as a condition of your employment, the company rejects the union, then you do have that "right."

No. You're being argumentative. A "right" is something you're due. You know, the right to free speech, the right to bear arms, etc. A contract or working conditions you negotiate are not "rights".
 
No. I had no delusion about that riv.



No but you're insulated from the reality of those who are scraping by and under the misconception they can just quit and find another job if they don't like the one they have.



Sure. In the mind of a capitalist concentrating on one thing and one thing only, profit.

In the mind of a worker fair is pay commensurate with the job, the sacrifices they make, the amount of work performed and what is truly fair compensation.



Never thought that at all. Doesn't mean you're not ignoring the reality of the work place though. Which you are.



And you are fortunate that you are capable of doing that. I am too but that does in no way mean all people, all workers, are able or capable of doing the same thing riv.



Sure, it's your reality. But your understanding of the work place is not since your understanding is, obviously, tilted towards the employer and their profit goals and not the employee and their needs.

Gawd I sound like a communist but I want you to know I'm not. Really. :shock:

I'm still not sure why you think that my opinion is what it is because I haven't struggled financially. I assure you, I spent many years struggling financially
 
Unfortunately not all unions are for the people as they should be. There's a union here in Seattle, SEIU Local 9, that is the shadiest operation I've seen. They adopted Contracted Security into their union (forcefully) and the funny thing is they cannot protect them at all. Security is unable to strike as it is a 24/7 necessity and all contracts state that in the event the guards refuse to work they will contract a temporary security service in place of them untill they find another company. So no striking if you don't like the proposed contract. The union only recognizes the occupied floors of a building as security oriented square footage.... even though the security officers have to patrol not only the occupied areas, but the inactive areas, the parking floors, the roof, the exterior, the storage facility, and the empty building next to ours etc, so they are paid at a lower rate than the contract states they should, based on square feet.

I feel bad for the contracted physical security here. They know they are being hosed, but even if they choose not to be a part of the union, their dues will still be taken out and given to a charity of the SEIU's choice instead of theirselves.
 
In many places, such as school systems or places of higher education, if a union is in place, employees must join it, regardless as to the preference of the employee.

Do you have a right to NOT join a union?

Why/why not?

Sure, as long as you're willing to disavow any pay increases or additional holidays or improvements won by the unions, and are satisified that employers know you have less of a professional support network than union-members, and are willing to accept that this'll bar you from certain fields. But if you've joined a field with mandatory unionisation, then no, you don't.
 
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Or, if you'd like to just be able to shout "YOOS!", come to Glasgow. :mrgreen:

Hey, speaking of Scotland...

Did you hear about the Scotsman who came out of the ladies room at a restaurant and exclaimed

"Hoot mahn, I thought it said laddy's!!!"

:mrgreen:


rsixing
Clan Keith
 
I'm still not sure why you think that my opinion is what it is because I haven't struggled financially. I assure you, I spent many years struggling financially

IMO your current opine is based on your success riv in that you can't understand how others cannot surmount and overcome the obstacles you have to reach your level of success and because of that you don't quite understand how others aren't capable of just quiting, moving along and finding a better job or one more to their liking.
 
Unfortunately not all unions are for the people as they should be. There's a union here in Seattle, SEIU Local 9, that is the shadiest operation I've seen. They adopted Contracted Security into their union (forcefully) and the funny thing is they cannot protect them at all. Security is unable to strike as it is a 24/7 necessity and all contracts state that in the event the guards refuse to work they will contract a temporary security service in place of them untill they find another company. So no striking if you don't like the proposed contract. The union only recognizes the occupied floors of a building as security oriented square footage.... even though the security officers have to patrol not only the occupied areas, but the inactive areas, the parking floors, the roof, the exterior, the storage facility, and the empty building next to ours etc, so they are paid at a lower rate than the contract states they should, based on square feet.

I feel bad for the contracted physical security here. They know they are being hosed, but even if they choose not to be a part of the union, their dues will still be taken out and given to a charity of the SEIU's choice instead of theirselves.

They can get a different union you know. They don't have to keep SEIU.
 
Sure, as long as you're willing to disavow any pay increases or additional holidays or improvements won by the unions, and are satisified that employers know you have less of a professional support network than union-members, and are willing to accept that this'll bar you from certain fields.
I'm not in a union and I dont any of these problems.
How did that happen?
 
I like unions. When I get a job, I plan to be in a union, but I will NOT be forced to do it though, or else I will move.

There are some industries where you have no choice, you either join the union or you don't work, period.
 
There are some industries where you have no choice, you either join the union or you don't work, period.
Ahhh... the right to choose.
 
One does not have join a union. I chose to not join one years ago and I lost chance for a good job. If one does not want join the union that represents and protects workers, one has the choice of looking for a job elsewhere. I chose to look elsewhere. I was told that the company was a union shop, and I looked for a non-union shop. At the end of the year, I figured that I had lost close to 14,000 dollar, that I could have received if I had joined the
union.

Now with companies and government backing away from medical and other benefits, joining a union has become a very smart thing to do.

your choice poverty or unions????? but it is a choice in the uSA.

Certainly there are power hungry and corrupt union leaders, just as there are power hungry and terrible presidents like Bush and Reagan:
monkey duel
 
Thew right to choose exists BEFORE someone makes th eCHOICE to enter into the industry that has Union Memebrship as a requirement. I don't get how people think their rights to choose is removed just because they made a choice that has unpleasant consequences.

If someone CHOOSES to pursue a career in a field where Union Membership is a requirement, they either need to STFU and join the Union. or they neecd to pick a new career. End of story.

This making poor choices and then bitching about the consequences attitude is irksome to me.

I say this and I was a non-Union Carpenter for years, even running my own non-Union carpentry company for a while. I've never belonged to a Union.
 
Thew right to choose exists BEFORE someone makes th eCHOICE to enter into the industry that has Union Memebrship as a requirement.
Correct me if I am wrong, but...
The right to unionze stems from the right to associate.
Doesnt the right to associate also, necessarily, include the right to NOT associate?
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but...
The right to unionze stems from the right to associate.
Doesnt the right to associate also, necessarily, include the right to NOT associate?

And anyone has the right not to associate. What they don't have a right to do is work at a specific job. If that specific job has requirements that they do not want to partake in, tough **** for them. They need to look for a different job.
 
And anyone has the right not to associate. What they don't have a right to do is work at a specific job. If that specific job has requirements that they do not want to partake in, tough **** for them. They need to look for a different job.
I imagine that if a black person working for some company was, as part of his job, required to be a dues-paying, participating member of the KKK, there'd be a court (and a untold number for pro-union people) that would disagree with you.
 
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I imagine that if a black person working for some company was, as part of his job, required to be a dues-paying, participating member of the KKK, there'd be a court (and a untold number for pro-union people) that would disagree with you.

Of course the obvious fact is that the KKK is not remotely close to comparable to a Union except that they are both "groups".
 
Of course the obvious fact is that the KKK is not remotely close to comparable to a Union except that they are both "groups".
According to your argument, that's irrelevant.
 
According to your argument, that's irrelevant.

Notr according to MY argument. Maybe according to a miscommunication of my argument.

When you asked beofre about owning a gun, I repsonded that if it was a job requirement, it would be OK. This is like being a Policeman in soime places. My friend is a cop and he had to purhase his own sidearm. That is because the job requires him to have a handgun.


The Union is actually job dependent. It ceases to exist without the jobs. There is no occupation that dictates the KKK's existence.

One is related to the work, even if that relationship is contrived by the Union itself, the other group is totally unrelated to the job and thus it cannot be construed as a reasonable job requirement.

The comparison of saying that an employer requiring membership in the KKK (non-job related group) to an employer requiring memebrship in the Union (a job related group) is incorrect because the two groups are non-equivilant in terms of the discussion.



Now, as far as my actual opinion of the KKK thing goes, I'm inclined to say that the employer should be allowed to require membership in the KKK for his employees if he wants to, so long as the rule applies to all employees and he doesn't discriminate in the hiring process based on race.

He should not be allowed to make the rule applicable to some but not others.

If a potential black employee decides not to work there because of that requiremetn, that is their choice. I'm sure that many white people would opt not to work there either and that due to the abundance of sub-par employees, the employer would either be forced to pay more wages to lure the employees in or he/she would need to get rid of the policy.

That's my thinking on the matter.
 
When you asked beofre about owning a gun, I repsonded that if it was a job requirement, it would be OK. This is like being a Policeman in soime places. My friend is a cop and he had to purhase his own sidearm. That is because the job requires him to have a handgun.

Just to niggle a little, there are many, many jobs within a police department that do not require you to carry a gun. In fact, there are many jobs in uniform where carrying a weapon are not necessary or required. Someone who wanted to belong to the police department but didn't want to carry a gun could still do so. However, there are many industries where you simply cannot work in any capacity if you do not join a union. Take Hollywood for example. You simply cannot make movies in Hollywood without belonging to some sort of union. Heck, I don't think you can even pick up trash off the back lots without joining the "Backlot Trash Pickers Union". It simply cannot be done.
 
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