View Poll Results: Do you have a right to NOT join a union

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  • Yes

    100 89.29%
  • No

    12 10.71%
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Thread: A right to NOT join a union?

  1. #161
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Fair enough. I'm all for better unions. Don't think it will happen until the american worker wields a little more power. Job relocation has been the last nail in the coffin for that as near as I can tell.
    What makes you think the worker doesn't wield enough power? The worker is actually in a better negotiating position than the company. If the worker decides to go work somewhere else, they lose nothing unless they decide to take a lower paying job, and likely can even land themselves a better paying job.

    The company, on the other hand, has to pay the people in HR to process each new employee, then they have to train them, costing them not only the money they are paying the new hire, but also the money they are paying the person training the new hire.

    In the end, it generally ends up costing them more than it costs the worker, putting the worker in a position of relative strength.

    Most workers are just too non-confrontational to demand a raise, and too lazy to go looking for other job opportunities on their time off.

  2. #162
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    I absolutely, positively, without a doubt and with full conviction believe people should not be forced to join unions.......but a "right?" I don't know about that.

  3. #163
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Yes, you have a right to not join a union. No one is going around door to door forcing folks to join a union. However, employers have the right to NOT hire you if you refuse to join a union. You don't have a right to employment at any job.

    On the issue of unions overall, its a tough one for me. History shows us what life was like before unions. I don't think anyone wants to return to that or anything remotely resembling that. We do have some laws in place that prevent a full scale regression, but I still believe without unions we'd see significant reversals. Employers self interest dictates that they get cheapest efficient labor they can. And most laborers are easily replaceable, meaning an individual worker with no union has very little negotiating power. I mean seriously, how many of us are so skilled and unique that our employer would struggle to find a suitable replacement if we quit? Most of us would probably have dozens of qualified applicants ready to fill our job if we left. Unions give workers leverage to negotiate better wages and benefits.

    That said, unions today have gone beyond simply establishing a fair and decent wage and benefits for workers. Many unions have forced companies to accept strict regulations on who can do what work. They want job security for life. Unstustainable retirement benefits and pensions. And are often the crutch used by the worse and laziest employees.

    For those who decry unions, I see your points. But what kind of world do you think we would have if we abolished unions? Or used right to work and other regulations to break union influence and leverage?
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  4. #164
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    Unstustainable retirement benefits and pensions.
    Unsustainable because and only because the thought of the capitalist at the head of the corporation holding off on buying that sports franchise or airline or estate doesn't even enter the conversation.
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  5. #165
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent_Grey View Post
    The larger ones may be far-reaching, but all of them came out of an industry somewhere. There is no chicken-and-egg question about where unions come from.
    Sure, at one point they all started small, but today, they're massive monsters that couldn't care less about the health of any individual company, the union becomes a business unto itself, existing not to take care of workers but to gather as much membership money as possible. It's one think to have an individual workplace form a union, that union ceases to exist of the workplace closes, it's another to let a mega-union who doesn't care about anyone come in.
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  6. #166
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus
    Sure, at one point they all started small, but today, they're massive monsters that couldn't care less about the health of any individual company, the union becomes a business unto itself, existing not to take care of workers but to gather as much membership money as possible. It's one think to have an individual workplace form a union, that union ceases to exist of the workplace closes, it's another to let a mega-union who doesn't care about anyone come in.
    While I agree that union bureaucrats are leeches on the workers whom they are supposed to represent, and in countless instances have sided against the workers in reaching a "compromise" with the bosses (which generally amounts to the workers doing the compromising and the company doing little to nothing), I disagree with the idea of company unions completely. The entire point of unions is to organize the workers in effectively being able to fight for their interests, and this is only possible ultimately in industrial unions. The entire history of the international union movement attests to the strength that workers can have when organized industrially and the power they can wield in their collective action, and the weakness of company/craft unions that simply divide/fragment the workers. See the explosive growth of the CIO as the first large fighting industrial union as opposed to the craft-unionism of the AFL as a good example of this.
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  7. #167
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    While I agree that union bureaucrats are leeches on the workers whom they are supposed to represent, and in countless instances have sided against the workers in reaching a "compromise" with the bosses (which generally amounts to the workers doing the compromising and the company doing little to nothing), I disagree with the idea of company unions completely. The entire point of unions is to organize the workers in effectively being able to fight for their interests, and this is only possible ultimately in industrial unions. The entire history of the international union movement attests to the strength that workers can have when organized industrially and the power they can wield in their collective action, and the weakness of company/craft unions that simply divide/fragment the workers. See the explosive growth of the CIO as the first large fighting industrial union as opposed to the craft-unionism of the AFL as a good example of this.
    Unfortunately, national unions have little interest in local workers. If they unionize a shop and the owner decides he can't afford to stay in business and goes under, the union really doesn't care, they can always get more paying members. Business-specific unions at least have a vested interest in the health of both the workers and the business. If the business goes under, so does the union and therefore they're less likely to make absurd demands, like the national unions do, because they know that their paychecks rest on not screwing over the owner.
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  8. #168
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus
    Unfortunately, national unions have little interest in local workers. If they unionize a shop and the owner decides he can't afford to stay in business and goes under, the union really doesn't care, they can always get more paying members.
    Yes but as I said this is because (as I have already said) as the unions have become more bureaucratic and as the rank-and-file have lost control, the shift of the unions has been towards preserving those bureaucrats' positions while at the same time keeping the workers from any real fighting action for their rights through collusion between the union bureaucrats, the bosses and the government.

    Business-specific unions at least have a vested interest in the health of both the workers and the business. If the business goes under, so does the union and therefore they're less likely to make absurd demands, like the national unions do, because they know that their paychecks rest on not screwing over the owner.
    I don't think that unions should ever be concerned with the survival of a business. The point of the union is to defend the workers, not to make compromises that benefit the bosses at the expense of the workers.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  9. #169
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Yes but as I said this is because (as I have already said) as the unions have become more bureaucratic and as the rank-and-file have lost control, the shift of the unions has been towards preserving those bureaucrats' positions while at the same time keeping the workers from any real fighting action for their rights through collusion between the union bureaucrats, the bosses and the government.



    I don't think that unions should ever be concerned with the survival of a business. The point of the union is to defend the workers, not to make compromises that benefit the bosses at the expense of the workers.
    You don't think unions should ever be concerned with the survival of a business?..........................I couldn't have asked for a better post to promote the right to work! You see,....survival of the business means survival of jobs..........well, I'm not sure I can say more than this idiotic statement so I'll just quote it again....read it and really think about what this person just said.........."I don't think that unions should ever be concerned with the survival of a business." This is why unions are dying-and that's too bad.....
    When governments fear people, there is liberty, when people fear governments, there's Tyranny

  10. #170
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    Re: A right to NOT join a union?

    Quote Originally Posted by frazier991
    You don't think unions should ever be concerned with the survival of a business?..........................I couldn't have asked for a better post to promote the right to work! You see,....survival of the business means survival of jobs..........well, I'm not sure I can say more than this idiotic statement so I'll just quote it again....read it and really think about what this person just said.........."I don't think that unions should ever be concerned with the survival of a business." This is why unions are dying-and that's too bad....
    No, unions are dying because of their increased bureaucracy and lack of representation of their rank-and-file.

    Unions should not be concerned with the survival of a business for reasons previously stated; if a company threatens to move a factory overseas, it is because they want to put their burdens on the backs of the workers while retaining their own level of comfort. You don't see large executives take significant pay cuts or make such sacrifices in order to "save the business". They'll just take it out of the pockets of the ordinary worker and be done with it. They can't be bothered to care about us so why should we bother to care about them?
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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