View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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    133 56.36%
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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #941
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Religion is the duty which we owe to our Creator...no man's right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance.... Because Religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body.

    --James Madison - Memorial and Remonstrance - 1785

    When it passed the bill that recommended a belief in "one Nation under God", Congress foolishly and sinfully took cognizance of a disputed issue pertaining to the duty which we owe to our Creator. That isssue being whether there is or is not a God, and whether he is over us.

    Leave the religion of the people as free as the air they breathe from government influence. Let each man decide for himself if God does actually exist and if God is over him.

    If Christianity is the true religion it needs no help from the government. If not, let it wither and blow away.

    When has Christ ever asked the government to help him promulgate his Gospel? When he stood before Pilate, Christ did not tell him that he was under the Savior's authority, or that the nation he ruled was under God. He said, "My Kingdom is not of the world..."

    The Savior also told us to "Render unto Caesar the things which belong to Caesar, and unto God the things which belong to God"; thus clearly intimating that the temporal and eternal governments were not only distinct from each other, but that the distinction should be perpetual; and that the laws of Caesar, or of the governments of the nations, had to do with men as citizens of the temporal world; and that the things of God were not to be rendered to Caesar - but only unto God.

    If you believe in God because the government made a law that told you to believe it, you are in a fast car on the Highway to Hell.

    FVF

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou
    Some would argue that insisting God be pushed completely out of sight is anti-American. I'm not religious but I'd agree with those people. It's freedom of religion not freedom from religion.
    I'm not going to bother refuting the other garbage in your post since you have demonstrated your lack of reasoning abilites. There are plenty of other people who will do so.

    Yes, some people do argue that "God be pushed completely out of sight is anti-American", but what does that even mean? Who is trying to do this? In this country this is just a ridiculous claim. Christians make up over 80% of the population. Are they persecuting themselves? God out of the government is what organizations like AU, ACLU, PFAW, etc are talking about and that leaves plenty of other places for God (whichever one you're talking about). You can't have freedom of religion without freedom from religion. We are based on a secular document that allows for the greatest amount of religious freedom and not just "liberals" support this, but any decent American. Saying that you MUST pick a religion is NOT freedom. Unlike you, I am pro-freedom, pro-America. Your religious beliefs or lack thereof is up to you and you should be able to express your thoughts honestly without a government stepping in and punishing or preventing you for doing so. I am very skeptical of your claim that you are not religious especially considering what you are arguing for.
    "To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead."
    - Thomas Paine


    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    - Thomas Jefferson


    "Ours is the first government made by the people and for the people. It is the only nation with which the gods have had nothing to do."
    - Robert G. Ingersoll

  3. #943
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by George_Washington
    It doesn't change the fact that America has had a history of theism in her mists.
    I don't see anyone here denying the role religion has played in our history, but it played that role because of the religious freedom guaranteed by our secular AND religion friendly Constitution. You're not going to have that continue if you mix religion into the government for which there is no good reason to do and to advocate this is to go against our Constitution and the USA.
    "To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead."
    - Thomas Paine


    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    - Thomas Jefferson


    "Ours is the first government made by the people and for the people. It is the only nation with which the gods have had nothing to do."
    - Robert G. Ingersoll

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by George_Washington
    You can use those crude analogies but they don't really accomplish much. The vast majority of our founding fathers were theists, not to mention that the vast majority of our Presidents and politicans have been religious. This also not mentioning the fact that many of our country's bright people in the arts, sciences, and business have been religious: Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, etc. So is religion is definitely a historical aspect of our country.
    Religion is certainly a historical aspect of this country. So what? The phrase in the Furniture Polish of Allegiance doesn't say "One Nation, that was formed by a bunch of guys that had a feeling that there was a god but we don't know for sure", it says "one nation, under god". That's an affirmation that their figment of imagination was not only real, but still is.

    Since it can't be proven that there is a God, it can't be proven that God had anything whatsoever to do with the founding of this country. It can only be said that some people believing in the tooth fairy in the sky took actions on the basis of that belief that were successful in shaping this country.

    Again, that some people of higher than average intelligence have a belief in no way makes that belief reality. So what if Einstein believed in God? He also believed that God didn't shoot craps. He was wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by George_Washington
    Again, your personal opinions on religion don't amount to a hill of beans, Elsa. It doesn't change the fact that America has had a history of theism in her mists.
    Again, it doesn't matter what the history of the country is. The fact is that the affirmation in the Pledge is not only not provable, significant numbers of Americans think it's hooey.

  5. #945
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    I don't see anyone here denying the role religion has played in our history, but it played that role because of the religious freedom guaranteed by our secular AND religion friendly Constitution. You're not going to have that continue if you mix religion into the government for which there is no good reason to do and to advocate this is to go against our Constitution and the USA.
    Well, I might argue that there is a difference between having the nation as a whole or the government if you will, containing elements of religion versus the entire legislative body endorsing or forcing individuals to practice a certain religion. For example, over in England there are many art forms, symbols, figures, etc. that are reminiscent of a monarchy. However, England does not currently still have a monarchy, nor do these decorations force any of the English people to live under one.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Again, it doesn't matter what the history of the country is. The fact is that the affirmation in the Pledge is not only not provable, significant numbers of Americans think it's hooey.
    But is there a difference between government endorsing or establishing a religion over its, people rather than itself as a seperate entity? I think there might be.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by George_Washington
    But is there a difference between government endorsing or establishing a religion over its, people rather than itself as a seperate entity? I think there might be.

    Maybe, except in this country the government is the people. That the formal trappings of government are a bunch of seats in Washington, a few buildings here and there doesn't alter the fact that the government of this nation resides in the people themselves. So when the government speaks, it speaks for all of us.

    That's why the lie in the Furniture Polish of Allegiance is so glaring. Because not all of share that particular delusion.

    Why is it in there? Because the people with the delusion managed to force it in to remind the whole world that some people in this nation aren't only deluded, but they're bad poets, too. That's it. And for the last few weeks, I've had to deal with my daughter telling me that her first grade buddies, all of whom obviously suffer some form of criminal brainwashing form of child abuse, won't play with her because she hasn't also been simonized.

    And the lie in the Furniture Polish of Allegiance adds to the problem.

    You guys can have your delusion, you know, but the very purpose of the First Amendment is to restrict you guys from spreading that delusion with the power of the federal government.

    Save the little girls, restore honesty to the Furniture Polish of Allegiance, get rid of the lie about "under god".

  8. #948
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Maybe, except in this country the government is the people. That the formal trappings of government are a bunch of seats in Washington, a few buildings here and there doesn't alter the fact that the government of this nation resides in the people themselves. So when the government speaks, it speaks for all of us.

    So, our government is solely in the hands of the people, in the sense that new laws should be passed at the whim of the majority's opinion? So what if the majority of people think the pledge should stay?


    Why is it in there? Because the people with the delusion managed to force it in to remind the whole world that some people in this nation aren't only deluded, but they're bad poets, too. That's it. And for the last few weeks, I've had to deal with my daughter telling me that her first grade buddies, all of whom obviously suffer some form of criminal brainwashing form of child abuse, won't play with her because she hasn't also been simonized.

    And the lie in the Furniture Polish of Allegiance adds to the problem.

    You guys can have your delusion, you know, but the very purpose of the First Amendment is to restrict you guys from spreading that delusion with the power of the federal government.

    Save the little girls, restore honesty to the Furniture Polish of Allegiance, get rid of the lie about "under god".
    While I do feel sympathy for your daughter, I can't help but think your analogy is kind of weak. Kids get made fun of and excluded from groups far apart from religion. When I was a kid, I knew people who weren't very religious, who committed crimes. What does that mean? Does that mean that atheism is the root cause of children's school problems?

    So if the government is simply just the people as you said, than what if the people want to keep the pledge?

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by George_Washington
    So, our government is solely in the hands of the people, in the sense that new laws should be passed at the whim of the majority's opinion? So what if the majority of people think the pledge should stay?
    You know, that's the most amazing thing about this country. It was founded by geniuses who knew that the majority is a mindless boob that gives sour milk almost all the time, so they created a document that placed limits on what the majority could do...and...bear with me, this is the most incredible thing you've ever seen... the first changes they made to this constitution thingy specifically states that the congress, which is the gang the majority elects every couple of years to work for them, simply CANNOT pass laws like the one they passed making the majority's delusion a law of the land.

    Didn't I tell you those people way back then were absolute geniuses? Makes me wonder why THEY never drafted a flag-selling poem and then made it the official rote statement of allegiance to the country. Truly a mystery, I must say.



    Quote Originally Posted by George_Washington
    While I do feel sympathy for your daughter, I can't help but think your analogy is kind of weak. Kids get made fun of and excluded from groups far apart from religion. When I was a kid, I knew people who weren't very religious, who committed crimes. What does that mean? Does that mean that atheism is the root cause of children's school problems?
    Yeah, when I was a kid, Andrea Yates hadn't been born yet. Driving off the cliff of irrelevancy to avoid the issue? The issue is that because the delusion is part of federal law, and that law requires the teacher to recite it in front of the class every day, with the expectation that the kids will follow along, that the delusion of the many is re-inforced and used as a weapon against those with better brains. Which is EXACTLY what the First Amendment is intended to prevent.

    So if the government is simply just the people as you said, than what if the people want to keep the pledge?[/QUOTE]

  10. #950
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    You know, that's the most amazing thing about this country. It was founded by geniuses who knew that the majority is a mindless boob that gives sour milk almost all the time, so they created a document that placed limits on what the majority could do...and...bear with me, this is the most incredible thing you've ever seen... the first changes they made to this constitution thingy specifically states that the congress, which is the gang the majority elects every couple of years to work for them, simply CANNOT pass laws like the one they passed making the majority's delusion a law of the land.

    Didn't I tell you those people way back then were absolute geniuses? Makes me wonder why THEY never drafted a flag-selling poem and then made it the official rote statement of allegiance to the country. Truly a mystery, I must say.
    So, our founding fathers were geniuses who knew the majority of people are stupid? I agree they were smart but some of them had conservative views, nonetheless. I suggest you look at this quote by Alexander Hamilton:

    "It is a harsh doctrine that men grow wicked as they improve and enlighten their minds."

    I would say that Hamilton, if he were alive today, would probably be in favor of God in our pledge, considering he had advocated the creation of a national Christian church. You obviously don't agree with this concept, which means you've just contradicted yourself. Unless of course you think we should have a national church.

    So you can't lump all of our founding fathers into one category, they all had different views. If they were alive today and debating, there'd be just as much crossfire as there was back then. Considering some of them believed in dueling, it'd probably be much worse than how our politicans behave nowadays...

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