View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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  • Yes

    133 56.36%
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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #821
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightatNYU
    You used to be a debate coach? Right.

    Shouldn't you have learned then that you also don't get points for ignoring everything that contradicts your previously held notions?
    Hey I've been asking for responses to the criteria that would make two words in the pledge constitutionally illegal. So far not one person has decided to take up that challenge. And yes, any good debater will ignore the 'It's so because I said so' argument.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by JOHNYJ
    RE ; Caine
    Some would relegate Religion to a shelf somewhere to be taken out rarely. They would drive it out of the public square completly. They are sucjh fanatics about it that they edit history .So even there you can't mention religion, that shows who the extremists are.
    This doesn't make any sense.
    Again, thats why we have THE CONSTI-MUTHA-****ING-TUTION.

    Jesus Christ people (And I dont even belive in the hippie)!!!!!!

    All Im saying is, take religion out of government.
    Leave religion in Church, Home, Billboard signs reminding you to fear god, and all that other crap that influences one to give away thier money to the church.

    Government.... GOV-ERN-MENT. say it with me....
    RE-LI-GION DOES NOT BE-LONG IN GOV-ERN-MENT.

    Yaay!!!

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    I do believe that the topic "Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?", is currently the daftest waste of time on DP. IMO of course.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Hey I've been asking for responses to the criteria that would make two words in the pledge constitutionally illegal. So far not one person has decided to take up that challenge. And yes, any good debater will ignore the 'It's so because I said so' argument.

    Yes, thats why.
    Its illegal not because "I" said it is.
    But because this little document created by our "founding fathers" ( I know you pledge nuts love using that one).
    This document formed our system of government, and placed the limits of the power of the government. One of those limits was not to endorse religion. NOT A SPECIFIC RELIGION. Religion in general.

    How is that so hard to understand?

    (The next argument will be why does the majority have to bow to the minority, I betcha)

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by robin
    I do believe that the topic "Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?", is currently the daftest waste of time on DP. IMO of course.
    Yes, thats why it has over 800 posts on it.

    Why, what is your opinion?

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Very well, I slightly mis-interpreted your post. Happens to everyone. Won't fight over that.

    No. The United States Constitution not bounded by any state constitution. Quite the reverse. Nor is it necessary to demonstrate the lawfulness or lack thereof of any or all state constitutions to show that a federal act is in violation of the federal Constitution. Your harping on state constitutions is totally irrelevent and quite the stylish non sequitur.
    If it is illegal to recite the Pledge in school, it certainly is illegal to study the your state constitution that acknowledges God in a much more specific way than does the Pledge. This is why I bring up the state constitutions that are NOT illegal to teach in school. You will have to do better than that to prove to me that the Pledge is unconstitutional.

    It establishes the religion that God exists.

    It refers to any God, or all gods.

    It teaches that there is a god, and the the United States is subservient to It.
    And how does it do this? Show me the specific phrase that spells that out. My teachers and my kids' teachers taught the significance of each part of the Pledge and what it meant. Did your teachers not do that? Did your teachers not teach you what metaphors are or symbols or icons? Did your teachers not teach you to decipher the imagery of poetry and how words can have different meanings and purposes? If your teachers did not teach you all that, you should sue for malpractice.

    It requires all forms or worship, or none. That is irrelevant. I just now invented a religion that establishes worship by saying the word "god". He's the Pledge God. The Pledge God will arrive on Earth when his name is said a trillion trillion times. Every failure to utter His Holy Name delays the day of his arrival.

    I can invent a religion as easily as Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Joseph Smith Jr, Charles Manson, L. Ron Hubbard, and Pat Roberston. I just did.

    The reward of the Pledge God is one's satisfaction that one's complied with Federal Law and brought the day of His arrival that much closer.

    The consequence of not worshipping the Pledge God as ordained is guilty knowledge that you have failed Him and delayed the day of His Coming.
    Really. All that from two little words representing the historical and cultural background of our nation's development. You'll excuse me if I think that is overreaching just a whole big bunch.

    The utterance of the Holy Word in the Pledge is now part of a religious faith.
    Unless the 'holy word' is intended and taught to be symbolic of the religious history that is a fact of the development of this country and should not be ignored.

    It can't be a voluntary patriotic excercise when the form of that excercise is defined by federal law.
    Unless the law specifically says it is voluntary. Which it does.

    That's an easy one. My child is harmed because while I'm trying to teach her to use her mind, and she has a most excellent and sharp mind; while I'm trying to teach her to deal with the real world and understand how the real world operates, she's receiving conflicting signals from persons in authority she's been instructed to respect, her teachers.

    Thus she recieves, every morning at school, indoctrination from the government that God exists. So instead of teaching her about the right way to get the Charizard to battle the Pikachu on her Ninentdo, I have to take time to explain to her that God is no more real, but a lot less fun, than a Togepi.

    Now, you may not consider that teaching my child how best to defeat imaginary monsters is a good use of time. I could be spending the time teaching her about trees, or improving her dodgeball skills, or whatever, that's not the point. It's not your time. It's my time. It's her time.

    And any time lost because it's wasted by superstitious belief, is time lost forever, and that's harm. That's real, measurable, harm.

    Sure, I have to deprogram her from because she gets infections from her friends who are victims of their own parents superstitions. There's absolutely no reason why I should have to also fight the federal government, not when the federal constitution forbids exactly that kind of establishment.
    There is no requirement that you put your child in a school that is not teaching what you consider to be acceptable for your child. But if your child is being warped, damaged, corrupted, indoctrinated, or having her time usurped by two little words in a Pledge of Allegiance, you have far greater problems that two words in the Pledge. I wonder why all the children of parents who don't take such an interest are not speaking in tongue, or preaching on the playground, or rushing to tent meetings after such indoctrination? Come on. Get real. I have had to explain to my children many facts to correct information that their teachers taught that I knew to be erroneous, and I was able to do that without undermining the authority of the teacher. You have a lot more time with your kids than those teachers do. I recommend you pay attention to everything they are learning and worry less about two little words in a Pledge.

    And that's because I said so. It is MY time.
    It's everybody else's time too. And if the majority enjoys it, who are you to deny them that small pleasure? And if it is so offensive to you, why don't you make other arrangements for your child so you can be sure he/she is never exposed to anything that makes him/her think or that s/he never has to learn tolerance for anything? Exposure to more than one point of view is not a bad thing in itself.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    Yes, thats why.
    Its illegal not because "I" said it is.
    But because this little document created by our "founding fathers" ( I know you pledge nuts love using that one).
    This document formed our system of government, and placed the limits of the power of the government. One of those limits was not to endorse religion. NOT A SPECIFIC RELIGION. Religion in general.

    How is that so hard to understand?

    (The next argument will be why does the majority have to bow to the minority, I betcha)
    An acknowledgment of religion is neither an endorsement of nor an establishment of religion.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    An acknowledgment of religion is neither an endorsement of nor an establishment of religion.
    Stating that we are "Under God" yes that is. How do we not endorse the establishment of religion when we are "Under God". How can we possibly NOT be endorsing the establishment of religion when we place our trust in god ("In God We Trust).

    Answer those questions directly and stop getting off subject.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    Stating that we are "Under God" yes that is. How do we not endorse the establishment of religion when we are "Under God". How can we possibly NOT be endorsing the establishment of religion when we place our trust in god ("In God We Trust).

    Answer those questions directly and stop getting off subject.
    Who's getting off subject? I've been precisely on subject. I haven't even brought in Dred Scott or any of a dozen other 'comparisons' that some of the rest of you have dredged up trying to make your point. And what does "In God we Trust" have to do with the Pledge of Allegiance (speaking of getting off subject.)?

    Again, what religion is being established? What is its doctrine? What are the rules for its congregation? It's priests or ministers or rabbis? What advantage do you gain by being an adherent of it? What consequence is there for you if you reject it? How does this 'religion' affect your ability to make a living? Own property? Conduct your daily affairs? Impact on your livelihood or affect any of your legal or unalienable rights?

    Acknowleging that people are religious, that there were religious considerations that went into the foundations of the Constitution, that our laws and our history cannot be separated from our religious heritage, and that many people in government are people of faith is NOT an establishment of religion. A slogan is NOT a religion. A phrase in a Pledge is NOT a religion. A symbol is NOT a religion.

    It is okay if I am religious or somebody else is religious. You are not required to be religious. You have a constitutional right to not be religious and nobody has a shred of power to require you to be religious or act religious.

    And neither are you given power to prevent others from being religous or acting religious.

    Common decency requires that we respect that you are a non believer. Common decency requires that you respect that most Americans do not share your non belief.

    Those two little words in the Pledge harm nobody and are satisfying to most. A little tolerance please. The country is not becoming a theocracy. The Inquisition isn't headed your way. The words in the Pledge are okay. Get over it.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    RE; Right at NYU # 820
    At the time ! opening excercises were Constitutional .
    You and others that oppose Religion in the public square,Make it sound like their are gangs of chriostians roaming shool buildings beating up atheists and JW.
    In acient days we had no roaming gangs of protestants attacking Catholics for not reciting their version of the Lords prayer.
    It would be so simple,you dont like the line,don't say it,but. That wouldn't satisfy malcontents that want to drive religion out of public life.

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