View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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  • Yes

    133 56.36%
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    103 43.64%
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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #801
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Really? Don't you think your opinion is based on fact regardless of the fact that you haven't shown how it is? Can you show how you have qualified your opinion in any way? Those who agree with you are the reasonable ones, right? And there is no point in debating me because I hold a different point of view?

    This is an amazing thing. The only productive debate is with people who agree with you or that you can persuade no matter how irrational an emotional rant may be? I'll have to give that some serious thought. It certainly is a new approach to the concept.
    Your the one who's rant is emotional.
    I guess you haven't read the constitution to see where our "opinion" is based on, and backed up by, fact.
    Your rant is based on your Christianity. Otherwise, you wouldn't want to sit here and debate whether god is in the pledge, you wouldn't TRULY care. Its okay, I know your going to say your not really all that religious. But, then, why would it matter?

    So yes, our position is based on, and backed up by fact that the constitution has the establishment clause which is to put a seperation between church and government, and official pledge talking about a god used to coerse children into respecting a divine being is definately in violation.

  2. #802
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    Your the one who's rant is emotional.
    I guess you haven't read the constitution to see where our "opinion" is based on, and backed up by, fact.
    Your rant is based on your Christianity. Otherwise, you wouldn't want to sit here and debate whether god is in the pledge, you wouldn't TRULY care. Its okay, I know your going to say your not really all that religious. But, then, why would it matter?

    So yes, our position is based on, and backed up by fact that the constitution has the establishment clause which is to put a seperation between church and government, and official pledge talking about a god used to coerse children into respecting a divine being is definately in violation.
    The constitution also has a prohibition clause that says that the government cannot say that I cannot say 'under God' in a voluntary Pledge of Allegiance. You guys seem to always want to overlook that part.

    You must also show what God and what religion is being established (or even favored) by the phrase , and you must be able to show in a substantive way how you are inconvenienced or deprived of any legal or unalienable right, in order for it to be a violation of the establishment clause.

    You must also prove that this phrase is used to coerce children into respecting a divine being, show that children are not capable of understanding the cultural and historical significance of the phrase, and you must also ignore all the history that preceded it, to make your point of view anything other than one based on emotionalism.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #803
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    The constitution also has a prohibition clause that says that the government cannot say that I cannot say 'under God' in a voluntary Pledge of Allegiance. You guys seem to always want to overlook that part.

    You must also show what God and what religion is being established (or even favored) by the phrase , and you must be able to show in a substantive way how you are inconvenienced or deprived of any legal or unalienable right, in order for it to be a violation of the establishment clause.

    You must also prove that this phrase is used to coerce children into respecting a divine being, show that children are not capable of understanding the cultural and historical significance of the phrase, and you must also ignore all the history that preceded it, to make your point of view anything other than one based on emotionalism.
    Ummm. Nobody is saying you can't voluntary say it.
    Im saying, the OFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-IIIIICCCIIIAAAALLLLLL ( did you get it this time?) version has god in it, and it doesn't belong there.

    God damn, are you church people stupid? Ive not only showed you that it is official, told you the date of which it became official....geez, what the hell.

    And, we on the side of REMOVAL of "under god" shouldn't have to prove anything except that its addition was unconstitutional, which it clearly is.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    Ummm. Nobody is saying you can't voluntary say it.
    Im saying, the OFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-IIIIICCCIIIAAAALLLLLL ( did you get it this time?) version has god in it, and it doesn't belong there.

    God damn, are you church people stupid? Ive not only showed you that it is official, told you the date of which it became official....geez, what the hell.

    And, we on the side of REMOVAL of "under god" shouldn't have to prove hing except that its addition was unconstitutional, which it clearly is.
    You haven't shown how it is unconstitutional. Several others have shown how it is. But you are basing your opinion on emotionalism.....naw.......

    A practical point however: what is more disruptive to a social exercise?: A couple of people leaving a couple of words out of a group recitation? Or a couple of people inserting words that aren't there into a group recitation? If it is a matter of a voluntary recitation, who should prevail? The many or the few?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    You haven't shown how it is unconstitutional. Several others have shown how it is. But you are basing your opinion on emotionalism.....naw.......

    A practical point however: what is more disruptive to a social exercise?: A couple of people leaving a couple of words out of a group recitation? Or a couple of people inserting words that aren't there into a group recitation? If it is a matter of a voluntary recitation, who should prevail? The many or the few?
    The few, cause its thier right not to have to listen to or be coerced to recite government official religious garbage.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    The few, cause its thier right not to have to listen to or be coerced to recite government official religious garbage.
    And there you have it folks. If you don't like the choice of music or the decor or the clientele or the rules or the layout or the wording of anything, all you have to do is say is it your right to not have to listen to it or see it or be exposed to it, and your will shall be done no matter how many others want it just the way it is. Yep. That's real American democracy for you.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    I believe that most people who strongly object to 'under God' in the Pledge because they have a deep seated revulsion for religion altogether. Some seem to relate it to Christianity for which they have a deep seated revulsion.

    I don't care what religion these people profess to be. Their MO suggests that if they could, they would wipe anything remotely religious completely out of the public experience altogether. I think such people, if they could, would wipe anything remotely religious from the public experience altogehter.
    Of course you have to define what you mean by "public experience". I really don't mind the lunatic on the corner in downtown LA reading his bible at the top of his lungs to all. It's a free country.

    But why should my tax dollars go to promoting other people's delusions? The Ten Suggestions have no place in public schools. Nor in courts and legislative chambers. The only Suggestion that should be a Commandment is the one against bearing false witness. THAT one should be branded on every politician in six inch letters.

    But no one I know desires to outlaw religion. Quite the contrary. Religion is a huge business that should be taxed at the same rate as any other. How many billions of dollars of tax revenue could be recovered by federal, state, and local authorities if the religion scam exemption was repealed?

    Of course, I do suppose the laws requiring advertisers be able to proof their claims would have to be ignored for the God industry, but perhaps something similar to the Surgeon General's warning for cigarettes could be posted on the doors of houses of worship and religious books:

    Warning: It has never been determined if anything promoted or taught in this place has ever happened or if promises made have ever been fulfilled. The user is cautioned that repeated use may result in the loss of reason and the possible departure from reality.
    We have to protect the children, don't ya know?

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    You haven't shown how it is unconstitutional. Several others have shown how it is. But you are basing your opinion on emotionalism.....naw.......

    A practical point however: what is more disruptive to a social exercise?: A couple of people leaving a couple of words out of a group recitation? Or a couple of people inserting words that aren't there into a group recitation? If it is a matter of a voluntary recitation, who should prevail? The many or the few?
    The government forcing words in that don't belong.

    If the illegal words weren't put there in the first place, this thread would not exist.

    Since those extra words were installed by only 500 people, clearly it's the few inserting the words that's the problem, not the millions that weren't saying them before the few interfered.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    The government forcing words in that don't belong.

    If the illegal words weren't put there in the first place, this thread would not exist.

    Since those extra words were installed by only 500 people, clearly it's the few inserting the words that's the problem, not the millions that weren't saying them before the few interfered.
    Unless you can show that religion is illegal--which the Constitution pretty much squashes that idea--then there is no way a cultural and historical metaphor alluding to it is illegal. Your personal ideology should not be able to dictate public policy than should mine. I have again and again invited the anti-under-God-prhase people to show how they are harmed in any way by the presence of those two voluntary words. So far nobody has. I get a lot of gobblygook reflecting their personal feelings such as your previous post. But I get nothing specific to indicate that anybody's unalienable or civil rights are being challenged or compromised in any way.

    In matters of personal preference, the majority should prevail. When you side is in the majority, you can take out the prhase, throw out the Pledge, do anything you want. Until that time, as the Pledge does you or nobody else no harm whatsoever and brings pleasure to many, I will go with the democratic principle that the people should decide what their Pledge will be.

    The rest should take lessons in anger management and study the definition of tolerance.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    RE ; Caine
    Some would relegate Religion to a shelf somewhere to be taken out rarely. They would drive it out of the public square completly. They are sucjh fanatics about it that they edit history .So even there you can't mention religion, that shows who the extremists are.

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