View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #791
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naheeh
    So our founding fathers were...agnostic? And those people who first settled in America were...atheists? Sorry about that. I didn't get that memo. And yes, their faith has a great deal to do with how everything in this country was developed.

    They wanted religious freedom for themselves and America. Removing "under God" removes religious freedom from the majority of people who WANT TO KEEP THAT IN THE PLEDGE!

    And yes, individuals who don't want to say it shouldn't say the "under God" part. Just stand there with your hand on your heart as a sign of respect and be silent when everyone else says, "under God."

    Kids shouldn't be forced to say a prayer in the public school classroom, but kids who want to say a prayer should be allowed to do so. Religious freedom.
    But there is a minority that says, "We don't believe in God and I don't want my child to see someone praying because that takes away his/her religious freedom to have to see that." PLEASE!

    You're completely missing the point. The kids can say "under god" all they want. That's not a problem. It's when the state decides that the OFFICIAL, mandated pledge must contain "under god" is when it becomes a problem.

    It's really difficult to understand if you're being deliberately ignorant, but hopefully you know someone who can explain this to you.
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightatNYU
    Interestingly enough, I'm a Catholic, and I want "under god" out of the pledge. It's unconstitutional, and it doesn't belong there.

    And what is this argument about how when religion left the schools, immorality crept in? No. When parents abdicated their responsibilities, immorality crepy in. What happened to you people not wanting government to decide everything for you. Take responsibility for your own damn actions.

    And you don't have to get rid of every trace of God. "God's presence" on money, in the prayer before congress, and other places in adult society is acceptable as is now according to the courts and the constitution. It's when it's a mandatory recitation in public schools to CHILDREN that the courts have held it unconstitutional.
    As you know, I agree to remove the "under god" from the pledge of allegiance. But I have a question for you, of your opinion, of course Im not trying to start a debate over it cause its off topic, but.
    What do you think of the 1954 decision to replace the national motto
    E Pluribus Unum with In God We Trust?

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    As you know, I agree to remove the "under god" from the pledge of allegiance. But I have a question for you, of your opinion, of course Im not trying to start a debate over it cause its off topic, but.
    What do you think of the 1954 decision to replace the national motto
    E Pluribus Unum with In God We Trust?
    It's another one of those things that treads a fine line, but I think the distinguishing factor here is the audience that it plays to. In both Lee v. Weisman and Wallace v. Jaffree, the courts stated that because the typical audience for prayers in schools is children, the coercive effect of said prayers is unconstitutional. However, even in those cases' majority opinions, the justices defended the prayer opening their court and the practice of swearing on the bible, under the grounds that adults are not as malleable as children, and thus face a higher standard of coercion.

    I would see the "In God We Trust" case to be a logical extension of that principle, that because the audience for the national motto is not explicitly children, and is not explicitly intended to promote a religion, that it would pass both the Lemon test and the more modern "Practical purpose" test.
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Scarecrow, you are imminently more efficient at debating and winning a point than some others I've seen here. You take a new tact and appeal to the person's politics instead of just trying to whack him over the head. Your most recent post was pretty damn good. I'm taking notes.

    Playing devil's advocate is just fun...

    I believe civics needs to come back into the schools. At this point it has been reduced to saying the pledge of allegiance which is obscene (not the pledge, just the fact that kids learn virtually nothing about our government until high school). It's an easy out to pass as being patriotic instead of doing the harder work of actually TEACHING about the country and winning loyalty that way. At my son's school (elementary age) and my other son's school last year (junior high) nearly all they talk about year after year after year is Native Americans.

    WE'RE Indian and we're sick of hearing about it!

    As for teaching morals in school, I should revise that to say respect. And it's not so much about teaching as reinforcing. And maybe they could have a class for the parents too. I'm amazed by the disrespect I see at the schools these days. A kid gets a D in a class and the parent goes in to scream at the principal because of it instead of sitting down with their kid and helping them.
    There just seems to be a general lack of respect and we can't discipline them because that would infringe on their right of self-expression.

    My son's teacher was shocked when I went in and told her to call me immediately if my kid acted up or didn't say please, thank you or showed her or anyone else an ounce of disrepect. She was even more shocked when she called and I left work to go in and talk with my son and then had him write letters of apology to the people involved. (And no t.v. or dessert for a week!) No one seems to discipline anymore.

    Off topic. Sorry. Deflating the soap box.

    Thanks for the lively debate.
    Last edited by Naheeh; 10-06-05 at 08:36 AM.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    The Pledge is not a recitation for children only. And it is not a prayer. Those who wish to make any reference to anything religious or to acknowledge religion in any way as a 'prayer' are way off base in my view. Any school that does not teach the different components of the Pledge is not doing its job of education, and any public school that teaches that the 'under God' phrase is a mandate or even an invitation to worship or believe in God should fire all 'educators' that are even suggesting such a thing because they are not educated enough to be teaching children. Likewise any 'educators' that do not teach the role that religion has had in the history and culture of our country are not educated enough to be teaching children.

    I believe that most people who strongly object to 'under God' in the Pledge because they have a deep seated revulsion for religion altogether. Some seem to relate it to Christianity for which they have a deep seated revulsion.
    I don't care what religion these people profess to be. Their MO suggests that if they could, they would wipe anything remotely religious completely out of the public experience altogether. I think such people, if they could, would wipe anything remotely religious from the public experience altogehter.

    Reasonable people, both athiests and people of faith, choose the hills they are willing to die on thoughtfully. A voluntary two-word phrase in the Pledge of Allegiance that the vast majority of Americans like to say is not one of those hills.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightatNYU
    JESUS CHRIST!!! I am going to VOMIT on you if you don't get this concept through your head.

    IT DOESNT MATTER IF THE KIDS ARE FORCED TO RECITE THE WORDS TO ANYTHING, IN MANY, MANY OTHER CASES, THE COURT HAS HELD THAT THE RECITATION BY TEACHERS EVERY MORNING OF ANYTHING IS COERCIVE BECAUSE OF THE AGE OF THE STUDENTS AND THE UNIVERSAL NATURE OF THE RECITATION.

    AGhhhhhhhhh, it's like talking to a brick wall. A really, really, really ignorant brick wall.
    I stopped bothering to point this out a long time ago. He just won't accept this fact, so there is no progress to be made in debating. He thinks his opinion is > than fact.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Still on about this are we?

    Anyone ever find a logical reason that the same judge that threw out "under God" in the pledge, just himself earlier, asked, oh......sorry, told someone to put their hand on the bible, and ask for Gods mercy.

    The explanation so far has been, they only do this once in a long while, so it's perfectly o.k. I don't know about anyone else, but this is indeed hypocritical, no matter how you try and justify it.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    The Pledge is not a recitation for children only. And it is not a prayer. Those who wish to make any reference to anything religious or to acknowledge religion in any way as a 'prayer' are way off base in my view. Any school that does not teach the different components of the Pledge is not doing its job of education, and any public school that teaches that the 'under God' phrase is a mandate or even an invitation to worship or believe in God should fire all 'educators' that are even suggesting such a thing because they are not educated enough to be teaching children. Likewise any 'educators' that do not teach the role that religion has had in the history and culture of our country are not educated enough to be teaching children.

    I believe that most people who strongly object to 'under God' in the Pledge because they have a deep seated revulsion for religion altogether. Some seem to relate it to Christianity for which they have a deep seated revulsion.
    I don't care what religion these people profess to be. Their MO suggests that if they could, they would wipe anything remotely religious completely out of the public experience altogether. I think such people, if they could, would wipe anything remotely religious from the public experience altogehter.

    Reasonable people, both athiests and people of faith, choose the hills they are willing to die on thoughtfully. A voluntary two-word phrase in the Pledge of Allegiance that the vast majority of Americans like to say is not one of those hills.
    You don't get it.
    There is no problem with religion in the public experience.
    The problem is religion in the public GOVERNMENT experience.
    Is the pledge GOVERNMENT? The flag became a part of our government on June 22, 1942 when it was made a part of the United States Flag Code (Title 36).
    What you don't understand, is that if we were a nation of 100% of believers in a single god, it STILL wouldn't belong there under our current constitution.
    Its taking away NOBODY's rights to remove the phrase from the OFFICIAL pledge in the United States Flag Code. You have freedom of religion to practice religion in your homes, churches, and other places, BUT children will not be coersed into reciting a religiously non-secular pledge just because most of America believes in "GOD". Its ridiculous.
    Oh, and if you did a little research into the groups who did all the lobbying for congress to include the words "under god" in the pledge, you'll see why the rest of us know for certain it wasn't added as a "historical, cultural, and symbological" reference.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    I stopped bothering to point this out a long time ago. He just won't accept this fact, so there is no progress to be made in debating. He thinks his opinion is > than fact.
    Really? Don't you think your opinion is based on fact regardless of the fact that you haven't shown how it is? Can you show how you have qualified your opinion in any way? Those who agree with you are the reasonable ones, right? And there is no point in debating me because I hold a different point of view?

    This is an amazing thing. The only productive debate is with people who agree with you or that you can persuade no matter how irrational an emotional rant may be? I'll have to give that some serious thought. It certainly is a new approach to the concept.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deegan
    Still on about this are we?

    Anyone ever find a logical reason that the same judge that threw out "under God" in the pledge, just himself earlier, asked, oh......sorry, told someone to put their hand on the bible, and ask for Gods mercy.

    The explanation so far has been, they only do this once in a long while, so it's perfectly o.k. I don't know about anyone else, but this is indeed hypocritical, no matter how you try and justify it.
    Well, ****, whats more hypocrytical is a country to claim to seperate thier government from religion, then sneak things like changing our motto, pledge, putting godly mottos on money, putting god in our court rooms, praying in our congress and senate, making "moral" legislative decisions based on religion.

    Its not just that judge who is hypocritical, its the whole system.
    Am I screaming out for us to change the whole system? No, its never going to happen and the Christians would have a ****-fit, as the Jews and other believers don't seem to give a ****.

    Why is it that every time a judge does something that the conservative people don't agree with they have to attack him/her?

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