View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #781
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Well, I shall advise you to do what any free person would do without help. Say slowly and carefully so you fully understand the words: "I can add the words 'under God' if I want to. I can add the words 'under God' if I want to. It's not necessary for the Congress to violate the Constitution to let me do this, someone's already thought of the words for me. It's not necessary for the Congress to violate the Constitution to let me do this, someone's already thought of the words for me." Do that several times a day until you feel that you can understand the meaning of freedom.

    That should work. Another way to get the concept through for you. Write the words down, wrap them around a brick, and knock yourself out practicing.

    I don't know where this 'judicial infallability' is coming from.
    You're the one presuming the United States Supreme Court will not only reverse the Ninth Circuit's decision but that that reversal will be infallibly correct. You brought it up, that's where it came from.

    But several in your camp are wanting to say the Pledge is unconstitutional because a wacko judge said it was.
    Don't know about them. They're free people, I'm free. I'm able to read. So I KNOW the pledge is a violation of the Constitution and I don't need a court to do my thinking for me.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naheeh
    I don't think people should be forced to say the pledge - I mean, not unless they're living in America and benefitting from all America offers.
    Should they add a "Seig Heil!" at the end of their forced recitation? Just curious.

    It's clear you don't understand America. It's not a coincidence the the greatest progress in history was accompanied by the lack of coercion . It was the natural result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naheeh
    IMHO, when God left the schools, immorality crept in. I don't think we should have all-religious schools by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think we should still teach basic morality.
    Why do you think there's a connection between morality and religion?

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    So should we scrap the pledge altogether? I mean, we wouldn't want anyone to feel they need to pledge allegiance to the flag - I'm sure that'll be violating someone's rights too.

    And what do you propose we put on the back of money?

    And should we remove Moses from the Supreme Court building as well as any other figure that could be remotely regarded as spiritual? And I guess we need to remove all the ten commandments from everywhere they are. Wouldn't want anyone to have to use that as any kind of guidance.

    And I guess I'll need to lead the protest at my son's school so they don't sing them religious songs no more. I mean, even though everyone else is fine with it. After all, it's not right. We must have absolute separation of church and state.

    I guess here's the rub - if there's absolute separation of church and state and absolute freedom of religion, what do you do when kids want to pray or say the pledge in school? Can't have it both ways, so which do we pick?

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naheeh
    Okay, I get it now. Thanks for clarifying. It makes sense now why all of our presidents have been agnostic. I mean, the whole separation of church and state thing. Oops! Wait. They've all been Christian. I wonder why that is?

    Listen, I don't have a problem with people being whatever religion they want, but our founding fathers and our leaders since the dawn of America have been Christian. The majority of Americans are Christian.

    All I'm saying is, "What's wrong with letting Christians have their freedoms as long as it's not hurting anyone else?"

    I guess I have a hard time figuring out how to remove God from anything, but that's me. I guess I hear "GOD" and I think, "Spirit, gods, Jesus, sun-god, moon-god, Moses, Buddha, nature, etc." And a lot of folks who don't believe in God believe there's "something" out there. And then there are a few that absolutely say there is no God.

    If we constantly adjust the 99% of the population to accomodate the 1% we're going to have a lot of problems.
    Boy, I don't know if I can get this through your 12 inch think skull. The religion of the Founders is IRRELEVENT! They could have all been Bible thumping blowhards, but guess what? The sole document that we base our laws on that they wrote is conspicuosly absent of a single, god**mn mention of Christianity. The only places where religion is mentioned in all of the Constitution are BOTH (that's 2, count 'em, 2) exclusionary. You didn't read that piece, you have no clue about the history of the colonies, that is perfectly obvious (Gee, maybe the Founders didn't want to have something like the state churche in the colony of Virginia where people were put to death for denying the Trinity and having a foulmouth, so they left religion out of government. Getting the picture yet? Cuz if you don't there is no point in going any further). You keep bringing up issues such as letting Christians have their religious freedoms (already do) and how we shouldn't accomodate the minority (I already did this thank you very much, upholding the Constitution, number of people doesn't matter, blah blah, ) Why are you even here then? If you want to continue with me at least, you are going to have to read that piece I gave you and read up a lot on the history of the colonies and Christianity in Europe (they were called the Dark Ages for a reason).

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naheeh
    So should we scrap the pledge altogether? I mean, we wouldn't want anyone to feel they need to pledge allegiance to the flag - I'm sure that'll be violating someone's rights too.

    And what do you propose we put on the back of money?

    And should we remove Moses from the Supreme Court building as well as any other figure that could be remotely regarded as spiritual? And I guess we need to remove all the ten commandments from everywhere they are. Wouldn't want anyone to have to use that as any kind of guidance.

    And I guess I'll need to lead the protest at my son's school so they don't sing them religious songs no more. I mean, even though everyone else is fine with it. After all, it's not right. We must have absolute separation of church and state.

    I guess here's the rub - if there's absolute separation of church and state and absolute freedom of religion, what do you do when kids want to pray or say the pledge in school? Can't have it both ways, so which do we pick?

    They can pray all they want to, as long as the school does not have a set aside time for a moment of prayer, or even lead the school children in a prayer, or we don't have school teachers telling students that the encourage you to pray.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Should they add a "Seig Heil!" at the end of their forced recitation? Just curious.

    Only if they're in Nazi Germany and it's 1938.

    Why do you think there's a connection between morality and religion?
    I don't. Read my other posts. I'm saying that when religion left morality went with it even though it didn't need to.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naheeh
    So should we scrap the pledge altogether? I mean, we wouldn't want anyone to feel they need to pledge allegiance to the flag - I'm sure that'll be violating someone's rights too.

    And what do you propose we put on the back of money?

    And should we remove Moses from the Supreme Court building as well as any other figure that could be remotely regarded as spiritual? And I guess we need to remove all the ten commandments from everywhere they are. Wouldn't want anyone to have to use that as any kind of guidance.

    And I guess I'll need to lead the protest at my son's school so they don't sing them religious songs no more. I mean, even though everyone else is fine with it. After all, it's not right. We must have absolute separation of church and state.

    I guess here's the rub - if there's absolute separation of church and state and absolute freedom of religion, what do you do when kids want to pray or say the pledge in school? Can't have it both ways, so which do we pick?
    Jesus H. F**king Christ. I just got done with a post with the hope of continuing this, but I think I'm just going to have to end this here unless you really prove yourself by tomorrow. I already answered this crap with airtight rebuttals. Like the great Founding Father, who without getting people to rally behind the idea of independence the USA would not exist, Thomas Paine said; "Reasoning with one who has abandoned reason is like giving medicine to a dead man." Good day sir/madam.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naheeh
    So should we scrap the pledge altogether? I mean, we wouldn't want anyone to feel they need to pledge allegiance to the flag - I'm sure that'll be violating someone's rights too.
    Well, what's the point in promising to be faithful to a flag? It's an inanimate object. Here's some relevant history:


    Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

    ...

    His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]
    http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

    So the pledge itself is intended to promote socialist ideals. Socialism is totally antithetical to the ideals of the men that wrote the Constitution. It's anti-freedom. So what the hell are we doing with that pledge in the first place?

    Yes, the federally legislated pledge should be scrapped. Completely. The loyalty of the citizens of a free country must be earned, it cannot be compelled. Requiring the act of grade school children is a form of indoctrination, whereas a solid loyalty could be built if the schools would teach an honest history of the United States. Even when aspects of our past are shameful, like electing Bill Clinton, we manage to rise above them.

    If it has cultural value, the free will of the people will carry the pledge as tradition just like we're stuck with Superbowls and World Series.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    I thought you were going to ignore me.

    As I have said this maybe 20 times already in this thread, I'll type this very slowly so nobody can miss it.

    There is no requirement that you acknowledge anything. There is no requirement that you recite the Pledge. There is no requirement that you recite or even acknowledge the 'under God' in the Pledge. There is no reward for you if you say it and no consequence for you if you do not. It is purely optional and voluntary. It does not violate any establishment clause of th Constitution. It does not affect you legally, materially, or interfere in any way with your pursuit of happiness. It is not unconstitutional.

    The reason the 'under God' phrase was put in the Pledge is absolutely moot 50 years later when most Americans see it is symbolic of our religious heritage.

    Why should a small, angry, minority have the right to dictate to a very large majority what words they can or cannot say in a patriotic pledge that is purely voluntary for everybody?
    JESUS CHRIST!!! I am going to VOMIT on you if you don't get this concept through your head.

    IT DOESNT MATTER IF THE KIDS ARE FORCED TO RECITE THE WORDS TO ANYTHING, IN MANY, MANY OTHER CASES, THE COURT HAS HELD THAT THE RECITATION BY TEACHERS EVERY MORNING OF ANYTHING IS COERCIVE BECAUSE OF THE AGE OF THE STUDENTS AND THE UNIVERSAL NATURE OF THE RECITATION.

    AGhhhhhhhhh, it's like talking to a brick wall. A really, really, really ignorant brick wall.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naheeh
    That's what I'm saying - we don't need religion in schools necessarily, but when they took religion out, morality left to. Someone didn't know that morality can be taught without religion.

    Yes, it can be taught at home. The problem is, when it's not taught in schools AT ALL, in fact - it's challenged in school - that's when it can be a problem. And I'm not talking about anything big - basic respect, please and thank you, respect your elders, listenwhen others are speaking..." The more I think about it I'm just thinking manners.

    Tell the 30,.....to go home. Okay...go home.

    Truth is, a lot of those 30,..... or whatever don't really mind the whole under God thing - they see it as a sign of respect to teh country and our founding fathers to say it. A few of them don't believe in God and want to make a big stink about it instead of just standing up, saying the pledge and not saying "under God" but recognizing that the majority of people like it just as it is.

    I'm not Christian but it doesn't bother me to say it. This country was founded on Christianity so I respect it. And because of the religious freedom our founding fathers believed in, you get to practice whatever religion you want - or none at all - but why do we have to get rid of every trace of God from the country to appease the minority of people?

    Interestingly enough, I'm a Catholic, and I want "under god" out of the pledge. It's unconstitutional, and it doesn't belong there.

    And what is this argument about how when religion left the schools, immorality crept in? No. When parents abdicated their responsibilities, immorality crepy in. What happened to you people not wanting government to decide everything for you. Take responsibility for your own damn actions.

    And you don't have to get rid of every trace of God. "God's presence" on money, in the prayer before congress, and other places in adult society is acceptable as is now according to the courts and the constitution. It's when it's a mandatory recitation in public schools to CHILDREN that the courts have held it unconstitutional.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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