View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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    133 56.36%
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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #631
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    Probably because our position has legal and constitutional significance.
    Your position that it is "historical" and thus is should stay has no constitutional significance because it is an uniformed opinion.

    The original pledge, without the phrase under god, I believe, has more historical significance than the one created during a time of Communist Paranoia.
    How, when, or why the phrase was created is moot. What counts now is how it is viewed by those who like the phrase in the Pledge. And most people do like the phrase in the Pledge. And I do think most people see it as cultural, historical, and symbolic. You are not required to say it and there is no consequence for you if you do not.

    For the life of me, I can't see how that is not the very definition of free speech and why you would not advocate tolerance for free speech rather than campaigning to deny it to others.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    How, when, or why the phrase was created is moot. What counts now is how it is viewed by those who like the phrase in the Pledge. And most people do like the phrase in the Pledge. And I do think most people see it as cultural, historical, and symbolic. You are not required to say it and there is no consequence for you if you do not.

    For the life of me, I can't see how that is not the very definition of free speech and why you would not advocate tolerance for free speech rather than campaigning to deny it to others.
    Because if it is a Pledge of Allegiance recognized by the National Government as Official, it should not contain any religious references WHAT SO ****ING EVER.

    Why can't you god fearing pansies realise that?
    However, the paranoia that put it there in the first place was unlawful and unconstitutional, and I think, like another man said, the phrase has served its purpose.
    I believe that those who do not believe in a diety and do not believe that our nation is "under god" have the right to pledge allegiance to our flag without any reference to a diety that they do not believe in. End of Story.

    Please, Explain HOW it is Cultural, Historical, and Symbolic.

  3. #633
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    Because if it is a Pledge of Allegiance recognized by the National Government as Official, it should not contain any religious references WHAT SO ****ING EVER.

    Why can't you god fearing pansies realise that?
    However, the paranoia that put it there in the first place was unlawful and unconstitutional, and I think, like another man said, the phrase has served its purpose.
    I believe that those who do not believe in a diety and do not believe that our nation is "under god" have the right to pledge allegiance to our flag without any reference to a diety that they do not believe in. End of Story.

    Please, Explain HOW it is Cultural, Historical, and Symbolic.
    It is cultural because more than 90% of Americans do believe in some sort of diety by some name. It is historical and symbolic based on the Declaration of Independence, the writings, arguments, and logic of the authors of the Constitution, and testified to by the preambles of 49 of the 50 state constitutions, and affirmed elsewhere in the body of the constitution of the 50th.

    There is nothing in the Constitution that prohibits religion or religious references; in fact, the Constitution is specific that such may not be prohibitied. There is no way anybody can make a reasoned argument that a phrase 'under God' that nobody is required to believe or say is an establishment of religion.

    The Constitution gives you every right to be as irreligious, unreligious, sacrireligious, or religious in any way you choose and to refuse to be exposed to religion in any way in your own private space. It does not give you a right to not be exposed to religious phrases in the public sector just because you don't like them.

    At such time as your side is the majority, you can say you don't want the phrase and it will be gone. Immediately. No questions asked. And you can use my arguments then in debates with those who want it put back.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  4. #634
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    It is cultural because more than 90% of Americans do believe in some sort of diety by some name. It is historical and symbolic based on the Declaration of Independence, the writings, arguments, and logic of the authors of the Constitution, and testified to by the preambles of 49 of the 50 state constitutions, and affirmed elsewhere in the body of the constitution of the 50th.

    There is nothing in the Constitution that prohibits religion or religious references; in fact, the Constitution is specific that such may not be prohibitied. There is no way anybody can make a reasoned argument that a phrase 'under God' that nobody is required to believe or say is an establishment of religion.

    The Constitution gives you every right to be as irreligious, unreligious, sacrireligious, or religious in any way you choose and to refuse to be exposed to religion in any way in your own private space. It does not give you a right to not be exposed to religious phrases in the public sector just because you don't like them.

    At such time as your side is the majority, you can say you don't want the phrase and it will be gone. Immediately. No questions asked. And you can use my arguments then in debates with those who want it put back.

    Again, if I want to pledge allegiance to the flag of my nation, I have to state that my nation is "under god" which is not only a religious reference to a non existant diety, but is also an arrogant and pompous thing to say.

    Your historical reference is crap, because the original pledge did not obtain this phrase, that would be the only argument that it is historical. To claim you know the logic behind why the "founding fathers" placed the clause in the constitution is absurd. And, I still do not see the symbolism.

  5. #635
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    Again, if I want to pledge allegiance to the flag of my nation, I have to state that my nation is "under god" which is not only a religious reference to a non existant diety, but is also an arrogant and pompous thing to say.
    No you don't. There is no requirement whatsoever that you include the phrase 'under God' when you say the Pledge. That you would allow other people who wish to say it would show tolerance and an understanding of First Amendment free speech rights. I certainly am able to understand that some would not wish to say the phrase and I would object to them being required to do so. Others want to say it and should have that right without being disruptive in order to do it.

    Your historical reference is crap, because the original pledge did not obtain this phrase, that would be the only argument that it is historical. To claim you know the logic behind why the "founding fathers" placed the clause in the constitution is absurd. And, I still do not see the symbolism.
    A few pages back I posted a history of the Pledge of Allegiance. The original version didn't have all the words that are in the most recent version before the 'under God' phrase was added either. And if you don't see the symbolism, well that's not a problem I can correct. Most are able to see the symbolism.
    Last edited by AlbqOwl; 10-03-05 at 12:06 AM.
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    No you don't. There is no requirement whatsoever that you include the phrase 'under God' when you say the Pledge. That you would allow other people who wish to say it would show tolerance and an understanding of First Amendment free speech rights. I certainly am able to understand that some would not wish to say the phrase and I would object to them being required to do so. Others want to say it and should have that right without being disruptive in order to do it.



    A few pages back I posted a history of the Pledge of Allegiance. The original version didn't have all the words that are in the most recent version before the 'under God' phrase was added either. And if you don't see the symbolism, well that's not a problem I can correct. Most are able to see the symbolism.

    So, in your most supreme opinion, upholding the establishment clause of the constitution of the united states in the case of the pledge that was unconstitutionally changed in the political propaganda efforts againt communism is taking someone's right away?

    If you want to proclaim that something is taking someones right away, make sure it checks out with the constitution first.
    If you want proclaim our nation is "under god", do it in a church/synagogue/mosque/cathedral or whatever other holy structures "house" your "god"

    Otherwise, the government has an obligation to uphold its own constitution, reguardless of the fact that "90% of americans" believe in an imaginary being to make them feel more all better inside, or whether someone believes it is historical, when I can guarantee it is not more historical than our constitution, which, last time I can remember, is the document that gives and limits the power of the government, and in this case, limits that the government does not have the power to support an establishment of religion. But in fact, to be fully secular.
    There is no way you can convince me that government official pledge should lead me to say that we are under some sort of "god". And your arguments do not out-weight those in the constitution's establishment clause.

    Now you can go saying under god all you want, but the official pledge to the flag should not have any reference to this diety of which you speak.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Try to show that 'under God' in the Pledge is an 'establishment of religion' if you can. What God specifically does it refer to? What Church, synagogue, mosque, or temple is the advocate of this God? What is the doctrine or core teaching of the representative religious group? Where do you find the mandate that such religious group is the favored group over any other? And re the allegations of communism factoring into the Pledge, please show the instructions that go with the Pledge that refer to communism.

    Thoughtful consideration of this point instead of a kneejerk temper tantrum because one can't have his/her way goes a long way to seeing this issue rationally and accurately.

    My opinion is never supreme. But at least I can provide a rationale for why I hold it. I think any opinion worth having can be defended with facts, logic, and reason.

    So go ahead. Show how 'under God' violates the establishment clause. Can you do that without being insulting? Can you do that using real facts, logic, and reason instead of pulling in unrelated topics and illustrations? Convince me if you can.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    Because if it is a Pledge of Allegiance recognized by the National Government as Official, it should not contain any religious references WHAT SO ****ING EVER.

    Why can't you god fearing pansies realise that?
    However, the paranoia that put it there in the first place was unlawful and unconstitutional, and I think, like another man said, the phrase has served its purpose.
    I believe that those who do not believe in a diety and do not believe that our nation is "under god" have the right to pledge allegiance to our flag without any reference to a diety that they do not believe in. End of Story.

    Please, Explain HOW it is Cultural, Historical, and Symbolic.
    You think maybe you could your point just as well without sinking to calling people "God fearing pansies?"

  9. #639
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacridge
    You think maybe you could your point just as well without sinking to calling people "God fearing pansies?"
    Your right, I can..

    My apologies..

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    Your right, I can..

    My apologies..
    Thanks, I didn't think what you said was that extreme . But it starts like this and usually turns south.

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