View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

Voters
236. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    133 56.36%
  • No

    103 43.64%
Page 62 of 107 FirstFirst ... 1252606162636472 ... LastLast
Results 611 to 620 of 1064

Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #611
    Sage
    Caine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:03 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    22,060

    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    These are just a few examples.

  2. #612
    Counselor

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, Oregon
    Last Seen
    11-07-09 @ 04:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    1,856

    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    I agree completely.
    I don't understand it really. The founding fathers lived in a time where even if you DIDN'T believe in "God", it didn't behoove you to let others know that. As much persecution that was going on just due to differen't ways of practicing christianity, I think Athiests would have been persecuted even more. In fact, I doubt if there were ANY openly truthful Athiests back then. (Again, for the shallow minded, I didn't say THERE WERE NONE, I said "I" Doubt). So all those who try to quote the Founding Fathers on the fact that this country IS and was INTENDED to be a Christian country.......Try to remember what history can tell you about what life was like back in the 1700s
    I am sorry but the phrase under God did not have anything to do with the founding fathers. It came into the pledge in 1949 right after the Second World War. A little history lesson, is what you need. Remember the year was was 1789 not 2005. 1: Our founding fathers and their immediate ancestors in Europe had just experienced over five hundred years of Religious wars. Protestant against catholic, protestant against protestant. Some of them had been very bloody. Even in 178o, religious strife and conflict was still going on in Europe. Blood ran freely in Europe. Religion was a major killer. Almost as bad as the plague in some counties. 2: Many of our founding fathers, including three of four of our first president were 33rd degree Masons. The Masonic Lodge was very big in America, and Europe at this time. Many of the leaders of our colonies were Masons.

    Oh yes our leaders were for the most part Chriistian by tradition and practice, and they expected the Nation to be Christian. Yet they did not want to have the united States experience the Reiligious wars of Europe, the political wars, of Europe. Some of this conflict had started in the united States under the Articles of Confederation. Some of our former colonies had State Religions. So at the Constitutional Convention, a constitution that created a unified federation, created with a National government dominant over the states was adopted,,, not without some hard opposition from Virginia and some other states. They did this on pupose, to prevent civil and religious discord. They created the Bill Of Rights, to prevent the civil and religious wars, death, and strife of Europe from happening in the United States. They demanded Freedom of Speech, and got it. They demanded freedom of religion, no matter what the religion, to be part of America. Later Courts in 1820 first interpreted that Freedom of Religion also meant freedom from Religion too. Choice--- the right to choose to belong to not belong to any reliigion, Christian, pagan, Islamic, Jewish and have the protection of the Law even if the Judge or sheriff was a Christian.

    In 1949, the debate in Congress that created, Under God, in the Pledge of Allegiance, made it's decision more in keeping with Tradition, rather than a religious preference. The Pledge give allegiance to the United States not to a religion. In 1957, when we put IN God We Trust, on the Silver ceritificate One Dollar bill. It was the tradition, not the religion.

    I personally don't care, one way or the other, about Under God being in the pledge, or In God We Trust on our paper money.. I am a Christian, but the Pledge or our paper money have nothing to do with my faith in Jesus.

    I am definitely a Christian and Bush is the worse president in our history and he is destroying America, and our constitution. I don't support any of those on the fascist right wing. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Leaders of Congress, and the new Chief Justice. They are against the American People.
    Last edited by dragonslayer; 10-02-05 at 06:39 AM.

  3. #613
    Sage
    AlbqOwl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    New Mexico
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:06 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    11,139

    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    These are just a few examples.
    Unlinked, unsupported, unverified examples, but even if every one was true, there is zero there suggesting that it is the government at any level that is providing reward, punishment, or other consequence related to the Pledge. If there is an occasional bad teacher or other government employee who is stepping outside the boundaries of the law, or violations of somebody's civil rights, the protests and lawsuits should be directed there, not at the Consitution or the Pledge itself. It is a very dangerous slippery slope to start down when we expect a national law or policy to keep us from feeling uncomfortable in any circumstance.

    None of us is immune from having our beliefs and opinions used against us in the public venue whether the issue is any one of the 10 Amendments, our political ideology, our religious beliefs, our past and present affiliations, or view of the world, culture, history, or the words we use to express anything. National policy should never be made based on normal social and/or political discourse that is pure opinion no matter how idiotic it becomes. The First Amendment is sacrosant in that regard.

    As recitation of the Pledge, including the phrase 'under God' is not mandatory and carries with it no force of law that infringes on anybody's inalienable or civil rights, it is a matter of personal preference in the exact same way that one's views on religion, politics, environment, abortion, marriage, economics, or anything else are a matter of personal preference. In all these things, reasonable and civilized people accept that others should not be required to accept their point of view.

    And neither should anybody be required to accept your point of view re how the Pledge of Allegiance should be worded. You have an opinion and so does everybody else. Where no inalienable or civil rights are at stake, the majority gets to decide such matters.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  4. #614
    Sage
    Caine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:03 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    22,060

    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonslayer
    I am sorry but the phrase under God did not have anything to do with the founding fathers. It came into the pledge in 1949 right after the Second World War. A little history lesson, is what you need.
    I wasn't using the founding fathers to justify my position.
    I was actuallying arguing the point that they have anything to do with this in the first place, which some pro-christian pledge people think so.

  5. #615
    Sage
    Caine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:03 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    22,060

    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Unlinked, unsupported, unverified examples, but even if every one was true, there is zero there suggesting that it is the government at any level that is providing reward, punishment, or other consequence related to the Pledge. If there is an occasional bad teacher or other government employee who is stepping outside the boundaries of the law, or violations of somebody's civil rights, the protests and lawsuits should be directed there, not at the Consitution or the Pledge itself. It is a very dangerous slippery slope to start down when we expect a national law or policy to keep us from feeling uncomfortable in any circumstance.

    None of us is immune from having our beliefs and opinions used against us in the public venue whether the issue is any one of the 10 Amendments, our political ideology, our religious beliefs, our past and present affiliations, or view of the world, culture, history, or the words we use to express anything. National policy should never be made based on normal social and/or political discourse that is pure opinion no matter how idiotic it becomes. The First Amendment is sacrosant in that regard.

    As recitation of the Pledge, including the phrase 'under God' is not mandatory and carries with it no force of law that infringes on anybody's inalienable or civil rights, it is a matter of personal preference in the exact same way that one's views on religion, politics, environment, abortion, marriage, economics, or anything else are a matter of personal preference. In all these things, reasonable and civilized people accept that others should not be required to accept their point of view.

    And neither should anybody be required to accept your point of view re how the Pledge of Allegiance should be worded. You have an opinion and so does everybody else. Where no inalienable or civil rights are at stake, the majority gets to decide such matters.
    Okay, tell that to the people who are labeled unpatriotic just because they don't believe in a god.

  6. #616
    Sage
    AlbqOwl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    New Mexico
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:06 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    11,139

    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    Okay, tell that to the people who are labeled unpatriotic just because they don't believe in a god.
    No, YOU tell that to the bigots who harrass people. That has nothing to do with a cultural, historical phrase in a voluntary Pledge of Allegiance. It could just as easily be the person ridiculed or excoriated because s/he does believe in God. This is not an issue of the Pledge or any issue other than bad manners, ignorance, stupidity, and inappropriate discrimination.

    It has everything to do with teachers who don't maintain discipline in a classroom and who do not teach tolerance for differences in points of view. It has everything to do with the bad behavior of egotistical morons who think theirs is the only opinion that counts. That kind of thing was going on long before two words in the Pledge of Allegiance became an issue, and it will be going on long after the issue of the Pledge is settled whichever way the Supreme Court utlimately rules.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  7. #617
    Sage
    Caine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:03 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    22,060

    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    No, YOU tell that to the bigots who harrass people. That has nothing to do with a cultural, historical phrase in a voluntary Pledge of Allegiance. It could just as easily be the person ridiculed or excoriated because s/he does believe in God. This is not an issue of the Pledge or any issue other than bad manners, ignorance, stupidity, and inappropriate discrimination.

    It has everything to do with teachers who don't maintain discipline in a classroom and who do not teach tolerance for differences in points of view. It has everything to do with the bad behavior of morons who think theirs is the only opinion that counts. That kind of thing was going on long before two words in the Pledge of Allegiance became an issue, and it will be going on long after the issue of the Pledge is settled whichever way the Supreme Court utlimately rules.
    Why do the pro-christian pledge people always claim Historical... Historical..
    The true HISTORICAL pledge doesn't have the stupid mention of god in it that was only thrown in there due to our nation's ignorant attempt of accusing those with a different style of government as godless.

    So, if this HISTORICAL point is so important, all the more reason to return the pledge to its true historical form.

    I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the republic, for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

  8. #618
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 10:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Well my remarks re Christianity were directed to Caine who did attack Christianity, and no anti-Pledge person rebuked that concept. Most anti-Pledge people do go to the 'religious agenda' angle at some point, especially after they run out of all other ammunition. You build the same kind of strawman with implications that I am fron the "Religious Right" and that is my motivation. And you would be as wrong as Caine was.
    I didn't mean to imply that you were from the religious right, I meant to imply that you were one of the people who, lacking a grasp of the historical record, chose to make your arguments based on untruths.

    I think I do have a pretty good idea of how the Constitution works and I think I probably have a better grounding in the principles that went into it than some. The 'under God' phrase in the Pledge is not indoctrination. It is a cultural and historical reference and symbolic of the inalienable rights that we all have.
    Except that the court has NOT held that "historical references" of that nature are allowable in public schools, and that recitation of something each morning, whether or not students are individually forced to recite it, is in fact coercive.

    Making this point over and over is getting really, really tiring.

    If you look at it that way, it seems almost unpatriotic or at the least short sighted to take it out. Doesn't it?
    Not in the slightest. Are you suggesting that the original pledge was unpatriotic? That our "inalienable rights" would be forgotten about if those red-scared politicians hadn't saved us from the godless hordes in 1953?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  9. #619
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 10:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    One last time: there is no requirement to say 'under God' in the Pledge or to say the Pledge at all. There is no reward for saying it or consequence for saying it or not saying it. Thus neither the whole Pledge nor any part of it constitutes a challenge to anybody's rights of any kind nor is it an establishment of any kind of religion. It is a patriotic pledge, voluntary in nature, that is enjoyed by the majority of Americans. Other than their personal preference, it has zero impact on the minority of Americans who do not like it. No individual nor collective rights are at stake.
    You just don't listen, do you? I can't tell if you're just ignoring the truth, or not understanding it.

    Whether or not the individual recitation is mandatory, the recitation by the teachers each morning has a coercive effect that makes recited prayers, pledges, or statements effectively established by the state.

    I can cite cases for you, again, if you like, though I don't think it will do any good...
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  10. #620
    Sage
    Caine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:03 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    22,060

    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl

    If you look at it that way, it seems almost unpatriotic or at the least short sighted to take it out. Doesn't it?
    So those who are not so pompous as to believe that our nation is "under god" are unpatriotic?

Page 62 of 107 FirstFirst ... 1252606162636472 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •