View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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  • Yes

    133 56.36%
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    103 43.64%
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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #601
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    And I agree that you are drastically wrong.
    The only Christians who would really FIGHT for this kind of thing are the nut ball christians who think everyone has to be a christian or the are all going to hell. The extremely Conservative Christsian people. The Progressive Christians don't care either way, they have thier religion, taking god out of our pledge isnt going to hurt them.

    Nut Ball Christian = Pat Robertson
    The precise reason you militant anti-Pledge people will lose is that you don't attack the exact issue. You are trying to make this a Christian vs anti-Christian thing. If you had read even part of this thread, you would see that Christianity is a zero factor in the core elements of the debate. Nobody ever won an argument by building strawmen. They are just too fragile and too transparent.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #602
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    The precise reason you militant anti-Pledge people will lose is that you don't attack the exact issue. You are trying to make this a Christian vs anti-Christian thing. If you had read even part of this thread, you would see that Christianity is a zero factor in the core elements of the debate. Nobody ever won an argument by building strawmen. They are just too fragile and too transparent.
    The precise reason you will lose is because of a lack of reading comprehension. Show me one place where I "attacked" Christianity.

    I'm a Roman Catholic.

    Because I recognize that public school is not the proper place to have religious indoctrination, that means I hate Christianity?

    I'm militant in my support for the Constitution.

    The reason why this has become such a left right issue is because SO FEW people have any idea how the Constitution works, what the courts do, and what they've said. So, rather than work under logic, the Religious right has chosen to support the pledge the way it is, and as a reflex, the secular left has chosen to try to get under god out. Then, all the well meaning but ignorant partisans looked to where their extremists were standing, and lined themselves up along with them.

    Politics in america is a fascinating thing, really.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  3. #603
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightatNYU
    The precise reason you will lose is because of a lack of reading comprehension. Show me one place where I "attacked" Christianity.

    I'm a Roman Catholic.

    Because I recognize that public school is not the proper place to have religious indoctrination, that means I hate Christianity?

    I'm militant in my support for the Constitution.

    The reason why this has become such a left right issue is because SO FEW people have any idea how the Constitution works, what the courts do, and what they've said. So, rather than work under logic, the Religious right has chosen to support the pledge the way it is, and as a reflex, the secular left has chosen to try to get under god out. Then, all the well meaning but ignorant partisans looked to where their extremists were standing, and lined themselves up along with them.

    Politics in america is a fascinating thing, really.
    Well my remarks re Christianity were directed to Caine who did attack Christianity, and no anti-Pledge person rebuked that concept. Most anti-Pledge people do go to the 'religious agenda' angle at some point, especially after they run out of all other ammunition. You build the same kind of strawman with implications that I am fron the "Religious Right" and that is my motivation. And you would be as wrong as Caine was.

    I think I do have a pretty good idea of how the Constitution works and I think I probably have a better grounding in the principles that went into it than some. The 'under God' phrase in the Pledge is not indoctrination. It is a cultural and historical reference and symbolic of the inalienable rights that we all have.

    If you look at it that way, it seems almost unpatriotic or at the least short sighted to take it out. Doesn't it?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  4. #604
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Well my remarks re Christianity were directed to Caine who did attack Christianity, and no anti-Pledge person rebuked that concept. Most anti-Pledge people do go to the 'religious agenda' angle at some point, especially after they run out of all other ammunition. You build the same kind of strawman with implications that I am fron the "Religious Right" and that is my motivation. And you would be as wrong as Caine was.

    I think I do have a pretty good idea of how the Constitution works and I think I probably have a better grounding in the principles that went into it than some. The 'under God' phrase in the Pledge is not indoctrination. It is a cultural and historical reference and symbolic of the inalienable rights that we all have.

    If you look at it that way, it seems almost unpatriotic or at the least short sighted to take it out. Doesn't it?

    I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the Christian States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for Christians.

  5. #605
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the Christian States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for Christians.
    Whatever floats your boat, Caine. It's good to say exactly what you feel. Most pro-keep-the Pledge proponents however have no doctrinal motivations behind our preference. I suppose the odds are that most of us do believe in God by some name. But it is not a Christian God or any other specific God that is referenced in the Pledge.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  6. #606
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Whatever floats your boat, Caine. It's good to say exactly what you feel. Most pro-keep-the Pledge proponents however have no doctrinal motivations behind our preference. I suppose the odds are that most of us do believe in God by some name. But it is not a Christian God or any other specific God that is referenced in the Pledge.
    okay.

    I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

    The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

  7. #607
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine
    okay.

    I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

    The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    One last time: there is no requirement to say 'under God' in the Pledge or to say the Pledge at all. There is no reward for saying it or consequence for saying it or not saying it. Thus neither the whole Pledge nor any part of it constitutes a challenge to anybody's rights of any kind nor is it an establishment of any kind of religion. It is a patriotic pledge, voluntary in nature, that is enjoyed by the majority of Americans. Other than their personal preference, it has zero impact on the minority of Americans who do not like it. No individual nor collective rights are at stake.

    Even in a Republic there are democratic principles when individual or collective rights are not at stake. In such a case, democracy prevails and the majority vote decides either through a direct vote of the people or a vote through the people's elected representatives. In the case of the Pledge, the majority prefers the Pledge as it is. In the next such issue, you may be in the majority and I can be the one who grumbles.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  8. #608
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    May 24, 2004
    Republican Attacked for Dropping 'Under God'
    Defenders of the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance go out of their way to emphasize that no one is forced to say those words - and because there is no compulsion, there is no case for removing them. While it may not be illegal to skip that phase, some of the same conservatives who emphasize the voluntariness of the words turn around and viciously attack anyone who dares to drop them - thus reinforcing the fact that what they aren't trying to accomplish through they law they do want to enforce by other means.

    Les Gehrett writes in the Gazette Times about how Linn County Commissioner John Lindsey, a Republican, is actively working against the re-election of fellow Republican Cliff Wooten. Why? He doesn't say "under God" in the Pledge:

    "He does not recite 'under God,' " Lindsey said. "As a veteran, I have mixed emotions about that. If someone's going to be a political leader, I do start to have a problem with that. If you are going to portray yourself as a conservative Republican, at least act like one." Asked to respond, Wooten said he was running against Skiens, not Lindsey, and he didn't want to get involved in what he called "smear tactics."

    In particular, he didn't wish to elaborate on the question of the Pledge of Allegiance. "I'd rather not respond to that because religion is a personal thing," Wooten said. ... "Our party cannot afford to be represented by these RINO-type Republicans (Republicans in Name Only)," Lindsey stated in the letter.

    So - a person can't be a conservative Republican without agreeing with Lindsey on religion and on religion's relationship to politics? A person who does not treat America as "under God" cannot be a conservative Republican? What a completely ridiculous and asinine position to adopt. Calling that a "smear tactic" is being awfully generous and polite, I think. Wooten is doing the right thing by trying not to let religion become a political issue - Lindsey could learn a thing or two from him.

  9. #609
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    September 10, 2004

    Student Harassed for Not Reciting Pledge
    A 13-year-old student in Wisconsin is being harassed at school for not reciting the Pledge of Allegiance - and the fault lies with the principle who announced that the reason for reciting the Pledge is to honor the nation. The implication was, naturally, Rachel Morris was unpatriotic.

    The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports:

    Catherine Goodsett-Wein said that her daughter, Rachel Morris, returned home in tears after hearing a message on the school's public address system suggesting that students who refused to stand were unpatriotic. ... The message, "The reason you stand is to honor our country," was broadcast to classes because Guell thought that Rachel and other students didn't know the reason for standing, Guell said.

    "She's not disrupting anything if she's quietly sitting there," Goodsett-Wein said. "She's not rebellious. But they're categorizing her like she's a troublemaker." Rachel said she was "embarrassed" by the attention she received from some students, "who stared at me like I was bad" when she didn't stand.

    One reason why it's bad for the phrase "under God" to be in the Pledge of Allegiance is that it improperly connects patriotism with specific religious beliefs. Thus, a person who disagrees with those religious beliefs cannot honestly recite the Pledge but in the process, it is assumed that they don't believe in any of it and it is then concluded that they are unpatriotic and don't believe in freedom. That's wrong and it's especially wrong in the context of public schools. A person's status as citizen should not be conditioned on their willingness to accept any religious doctrines.

  10. #610
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    September 22, 2004

    Illinois: Man Angered At Historical Pledge Display
    An Illinois library has a display that includes an old poster of the Pledge of Allegiance - old enough to be from before the Pledge was changed to include "under God." The absence of religion in the Pledge display has upset a couple who are complaining vociferously.

    Daily South Town reports:

    During a visit to the library this summer, Jim Hertz and his wife, Jan, noticed the poster on a wall and were surprised to see the words "under God" omitted. ... Hertz, who has lived in Frankfort for a year, said he found the outdated version, with no note indicating it was not the current version, to be offensive and "intellectually dishonest." ... Hertz, a lawyer, said he has offered to donate to the library a framed copy of the Pledge of Allegiance that has the words "under God."

    "(Library officials) pretty much told me they would accept the donation but probably sell it at a fundraiser," he said. "I also pointed out to them that I found their copy of the pledge for sale for $5 on what I would call anti-Christian Web sites."

    Herz's implication seems to be that posting the original Pledge without any religious declaration is "anti-Christian" and, hence, the library is acting in an anti-Christian manner. It's cases like this which demonstrate, I think, that the question of whether "under God" belongs in the Pledge really is a religious issue for supporters. Legal arguments tend to state that the phrase merely reflects the historic importance of theism, but people like Hertz aren't defending a historic artifact, they are defending what they consider to be a statement of religious faith. In so doing, however, they undermine any legal defense they have for the phrase.

    More power to them, I say.

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