View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    Please explain why under the 14th it is unconstitutional under federal pretences?
    Do you know what the 14th does?

    The equal protection clause extends the bill of rights to state and local governments.

    Therefore, the prohibition on federal establishment of religion was extended to state and local municipalities.

    Because of that, any gov't, be it federal or local school board, that mandates the recitation of the pledge is acting unconstitutionally.
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by TimmyBoy
    I don't think school kids should be made to pledge allegiance to the state. School kids should be taught to think for themselves rather than be indoctrinated and brainwashed in our schools. Nobody should pledge themselves to a state. Everybody should think for themselves and be their own person. The state does not give any allegiance to you, the individual.
    Government has every right to mandate a coercive secular declaration of allegience in public schools, as it funds them. However, it cannot, per the Constitution, bring religion into that declaration.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    This is the heart of this entire debate. The Founders wrote into the Constitution protections of inalienable rights that they believed to be God given (ergo the phrase 'under God' in the Pledge) and thus are not to be messed with by anybody, not even the Supreme Court. The protections they wrote into the Constitution ensure that even a majority cannot override those inalienable rights. If they attempt to do so by amendment or any other means, the Constitution will fail and so will the Republic it designs and defends.

    The Founders were also first and foremost concerned that the tyranny of government never be manifested in this country and that is what the First Amendment as well as the rest of the Bill of Rights is all about. Where no individual inalienable right is involved, it is the will of the people, expressed through their elected representatives, that shall prevail.

    That is why I have said all along that the phrase 'under God' neither establishes a religion nor does it violate anybody's inalienable rights in any way, and thus it is entirely consitutional and is present because a majority of people want it to be there. That majority represents the will of the people that is also constitutionally protected.

    At such time as a majority of people object to its being there, it will be gone. That's the way democractic principles structured within a Republic should work and in fact do work.

    On the next issue like this, those who object to the Pledge may be on the side of the majority; and I guarantee you they'll have no problem with the majority will prevailing then. :smile:

    First off, you do know that "under god" was added in 1953 to combat secular communism, right?

    Secondly, your opinion that "under god" does not violate the Establishment Clause is contradicted by numerous Supreme Court cases which argue otherwise.

    And also, for the record, whether or not something is democratically supported has no bearing on its constitutionality. Every single person in this country could want a prayer to be recited in school, and it would still be unconstitutional.
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    For the record, you do all know that this is not a democracy, correct?

    We live in a republic, and the rules governing it are far from being as simple as majority rule.

    And, for the record, the Supremes have held over and over again that whether or not the individual recitation of something is mandated, if it is mandated by any gov (fed, state, or local) that something be recited in a public classroom, that that recitation has a coercive effect on the pupils, and that if anything in that recitation is unconstitutional, no town vote, city law, or national legislation can make it constitutional.

    So the whole idea of towns voting on this issue is preposterous.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightatNYU
    First off, you do know that "under god" was added in 1953 to combat secular communism, right?
    Why it was added is irrelevent. What it is and how it is presented is relevent. It is not presented as anything other than symbolic of the religious heritage of the nation.

    Secondly, your opinion that "under god" does not violate the Establishment Clause is contradicted by numerous Supreme Court cases which argue otherwise.
    I would have to see the 'numerous Supreme Court cases' dealing with this specific issue to make such a judgment. I haven't seen any. I am hoping for a Court to hear this case when it comes up again to apply common sense to any conclusion. Common sense says that 'under God' is no establishment of religion, favors no religion in particular, and violates nobody's inalienable or civil rights.

    And also, for the record, whether or not something is democratically supported has no bearing on its constitutionality. Every single person in this country could want a prayer to be recited in school, and it would still be unconstitutional.
    No, reciting a prayer in school is not unconstitutional. In fact the Constitution via the First Amendment is explicit in its implication that anyone can recite a prayer in any place that is appropriate to do so. For a school to mandate or prescribe prayer would be unconstitutional. I also look forward to a Court who will take this reasonable approach as Courts of a few decades ago did.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightatNYU
    For the record, you do all know that this is not a democracy, correct?

    We live in a republic, and the rules governing it are far from being as simple as majority rule.
    If you had actually read my post, you would know that I am quite aware that we live in a republic with a representative government. That representative government constitutes the majority or minority opinion of the people whether at the federal or local level. If the majority votes for a moment of silence at the beginning of the school day, that should stand. If the majority vote to keep 'under God' in the Pledge, that should stand.

    And, for the record, the Supremes have held over and over again that whether or not the individual recitation of something is mandated, if it is mandated by any gov (fed, state, or local) that something be recited in a public classroom, that that recitation has a coercive effect on the pupils, and that if anything in that recitation is unconstitutional, no town vote, city law, or national legislation can make it constitutional.
    There is nothing coercive about a patriotic Pledge that no person, child or adult, is required to say and for which there is no consequence or reward for saying or not saying it. That some do not like it is irrelevent. The child whose faith is literal Creationism is nevertheless subjected to a mandatory study of Darwin and may feel quite coerced, but it is perfectly legal that he be subjected to the same material everybody else is. How he feels about it, howver, is irrelevent because there is no requirement to believe it.

    So the whole idea of towns voting on this issue is preposterous.
    The idea that the will of the people re this issue should not prevail is preposterous.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    What really matters is what the majority of people want. We are the governemnt not the politiicans(well at least thats how it should be and the fore fathers wanted that as well). If the majority of the American people want the pledge to be mandatory with the phrase then it will be constitutional casue they made it constitutional and vice versa. I am just arguing with what the majority will say. And in a democracy thats all that matters. I dont quite think the majority is on your side other than a handful of people and the ACLU of course.
    No. The Bill of Rights was written solely with the majority in mind. It's a shopping list of things the majority cannot do.

    The majority cannot use the power of government to establish a religion.
    The majority cannot use the power of government to shut down a newpaper.
    The majority cannot use the power of government to stop the assembly of people.
    The majority cannot use the power of government to deny others the ownership of guns.
    The majority cannot use the power of government to force private citizens to house troops.
    The majority cannot use the power of government to force citizens to incriminate themselves.

    Lots and lots of things the majority can't do. That includes defining a pledge of allegiance that makes a religious claim.

    At best, the Pledge of Allegiance should be a custom, not a ritual defined by law, as it is now.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Why should "Under God" be stricken?
    does it really matter in the long run? God is such a general term.
    If it were "Under Jesus" I'd be against it, but god is a term that can be used in about any religion. If you're atheistic, well, I was one too, and I'd just skip "Under God". It's really silly to fight over what amounts to a small thing.
    "If it makes sense, then it can't be done."
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    If you had actually read my post, you would know that I am quite aware that we live in a republic with a representative government. That representative government constitutes the majority or minority opinion of the people whether at the federal or local level. If the majority votes for a moment of silence at the beginning of the school day, that should stand. If the majority vote to keep 'under God' in the Pledge, that should stand.
    Fortunately, the court disagrees with you.

    "Our Founders were no more willing to let the content of their prayers and their privilege of praying whenever they pleased be influenced by the ballot box than they were to let these vital matters of personal conscience depend on the succession of monarchs." - Justice Black, majority opinion, Engel v. Vitale

    "Majority vote" is NOT a license to override the protections of the constitution.


    There is nothing coercive about a patriotic Pledge that no person, child or adult, is required to say and for which there is no consequence or reward for saying or not saying it. That some do not like it is irrelevent. The child whose faith is literal Creationism is nevertheless subjected to a mandatory study of Darwin and may feel quite coerced, but it is perfectly legal that he be subjected to the same material everybody else is. How he feels about it, howver, is irrelevent because there is no requirement to believe it.
    Again, the court disagrees with you:

    "Neither the fact that the prayer may be denominationally neutral nor the fact that its observance on the part of the students is voluntary can serve to free it from the limitations of the Establishment Clause, as it might from the Free Exercise Clause, of the First Amendment, both of which are operative against the states by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment."

    Engel v. Vitale

    The court held that whether or not students were individually required to recite it, the fact that the local gov. mandated that the school recite it had an unconstitutional, coercive effect on the students.

    In addition:

    "The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to each of practice religion."

    Reynolds v. Supra

    As defined by the courts, any invocation of the word "God" in the form of an honorary label in the public schools is a religious activity. As Engel v. Vitale stated, the fact that teachers are required to recite this prayer is an instance of tax monies being levied to support religion.

    The idea that the will of the people re this issue should not prevail is preposterous.
    The idea that the will of the people should be superior to the Constitution is even more preposterous.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scardy
    Why should "Under God" be stricken?
    does it really matter in the long run? God is such a general term.
    If it were "Under Jesus" I'd be against it, but god is a term that can be used in about any religion. If you're atheistic, well, I was one too, and I'd just skip "Under God". It's really silly to fight over what amounts to a small thing.
    Would the pledge be any worse if it did not contain "Under God?" If not, then why fight so hard to keep it in, despite the unconstitutionality?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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