View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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    133 56.36%
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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #471
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    Well, that is interesting to know. I just figured that it was OK since the quote taken out of context is harmless on it's own.
    Hahaha, well, that too. But if for some reason, someone did sue, and it went to the courts, rest assured that it'd be affirmed!
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightatNYU
    One of my professors went to law school with Roberts, edited the Harvard Law Review with him, and clerked for Chief Justice Burger at the same time that Roberts clerked for Rehnquist. The professor is a moderate-leftie who was nominated to DC Appeals Court by both Clinton and Bush II, and he says that Roberts is, in his opinion, one of the finest possible candidates in the country for that position. From the anecdotes he tells us about clerking together, he seems to be a pretty affable guy, and I don't doubt that he'll be an asset to the court for the next few decades to come, surprising many.
    Sounds good to me. I don't know why, but he just didn't really have me worried much, unlike some liberals.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    Sounds good to me. I don't know why, but he just didn't really have me worried much, unlike some liberals.
    It's cause he has that winning grin and such adorable children...
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    The phrase "under god" in the Pledge of Allegience is unconstitutional.
    No its not as for even columbusite has staated the constitution word for word which states the establishments of religion not the phrases of religion. So your wrong already. Shall I debacle you too? I really hate to do this to a moderator. But you asked for it

    The insertion of religious phrases into daily life in public schools was deemed unconstitutional by Engel v Vitale, and was affirmed by many, many cases to follow.
    Give me a link to a ammendment or a bill or something where it says that word for word.

    The truth(fact) is that I can pray at my school and hold discussions of religious conatations and debates. I can recite partsof the Bible if I wanted to for it is in some books and pamphlets in public school and college in History courses. I would appreciate it if you brought facts to the table not opinions and rhetoric.

    The fact that the phrase was instituted by a democratically elected Congress does not change the fact that it was illegal to do so:
    Again they didnt do anything illegal due to it being totally and fully constitutional for the constitution never once said otherwise.

    "Our Founders were no more willing to let the content of their prayers and their privilege of praying whenever they pleased be influenced by the ballot box than they were to let these vital matters of personal conscience depend on the succession of monarchs." - Justice Black, majority opinion, Engel v. Vitale
    This is bologna due to the fact being before every meeting in the continental congress they started the day by holding prayer. So now tell me that prayer had nothing to do with the foundations and in the making of the constitution. Even prayer isnt unconstitutional. Now if they make you say prayer then it becomes unconstitutional. Remember this is public school not gov. school. So in public places people are allowed to pray wherever they sit and read whatever they would like. So a public place where people meet to learn and teach is no different.

    I think that a lot of people will be surprised when this case comes before the SC and is decided in favor of the petitioners by a margin of 9-0. There's no Potter Stewarts left on the court.
    I think you'll be suprised to find out that SKILMATIC stepped up and debacled all their arguments. I have debated this topic before in debate club at my local college and debated this very topic against 3 prominent professors and won 7-3 and 1 was neutral out of 10 panelists.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    RightatNYU,

    One more thing, any ideas for raising public awareness of our Constitution? We, as a country, are terribly (dangerously?) ignorant of the Constituiton as you can see in this thread alone. (Maybe this should be another thread...)

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    What?!!! When did I say that? Do you even know how to disect a sentence? The constitution as it is written states that there should be no law passed that would incorporate the establishment of religion meaning its properties and denominations. No where does that imply to God or spirits or man for that point.
    Yes, I can disect a sentence, but that is of little consequence concerning the First, as it's meaning is clear enough. I agree with what you are saying here, but not with what was previously stated.

    "I understand but it is just giving respect to the establishment of a religion meaning the place of worship. You do know what an establishment is right? Its a place. Well a place(establishment) of a religion is the place in which they gather and worship. So its in respect to those places(establishments) of worship. Again its just referring to religions not anything else."

    An establishment is not always a place, nor did the use of the word in the First, mean a place, which is what I pointed out.

    In regard to the word "respecting," whether it connotes honoring, concerning, or regarding, the clause means that Congress shall make no law on that subject, which is also what I pointed out.
    I read a report that said the typical symptoms of stress were eating too much, drinking too much, impulse buying, and driving too fast. Who are they kidding? That's my idea of a perfect day.----Unknown

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Looks like you missed my post so I'll just move it right...here.


    Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    I understand but it is just giving respect to the establishment of a religion meaning the place of worship. You do know what an establishment is right? Its a place. Well a place(establishment) of a religion is the place in which they gather and worship. So its in respect to those places(establishments) of worship. Again its just referring to religions not anything else.

    OK. Time to pull out the dictionary. (dictionary.com, that is)

    es·tab·lish·ment Audio pronunciation of "establishment" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-stblsh-mnt)
    n.

    1.
    1. The act of establishing.
    2. The condition or fact of being established.
    2. Something established, as:
    1. An arranged order or system, especially a legal code.
    2. A permanent civil, political, or military organization.
    3. An established church.
    4. A place of residence or business with its possessions and staff.
    5. A public or private institution, such as a hospital or school.
    3. often Establishment An established social order, as:
    1. A group of people holding most of the power and influence in a government or society. Often used with the.
    2. A controlling group in a given field of activity. Often used with the.

    As you can see this word goes beyond "place of worship". If the framers wanted to say "place of worship" or "church" they would have said so. Insetad they carefully chose the word "establishment" and not just because it's fancy.

    No but we had Godand prayer, mind you, in our schools. So gotcha there.
    What do you mean that we "had" God and prayer in schools? We still do. Looks like I found a way out.

    I feel the same way. Why dont you all get out on the battlefield and see how patriotic you get? True patriots fight for their rights and secure them. Look, you cant tell me or preach to me about patriotism for I say it like Patrick Henry does. Yes, I would die before I get enslaved by any regime. I think debating on what we look at while we recite the pledge is meaningless. I could say it looking at a dumpster for all I care. The words mean the same regardless. Saying the pledge infront of a constitution isnt nothing different IMO.

    I don't even think you have to go as far to fight, but to stand up for what our Constitution says in order to be a patriotic American. That can certainly include fighting for it. The words start off with "I pledge allegiance, to the flag" I was saying that if we should make a pledge to something, it should be to our Constitution, not a flag (even though ours is very nice).

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by C.J.
    Yes, I can disect a sentence, but that is of little consequence concerning the First, as it's meaning is clear enough. I agree with what you are saying here, but not with what was previously stated.

    "I understand but it is just giving respect to the establishment of a religion meaning the place of worship. You do know what an establishment is right? Its a place. Well a place(establishment) of a religion is the place in which they gather and worship. So its in respect to those places(establishments) of worship. Again its just referring to religions not anything else."

    An establishment is not always a place, nor did the use of the word in the First, mean a place, which is what I pointed out.

    In regard to the word "respecting," whether it connotes honoring, concerning, or regarding, the clause means that Congress shall make no law on that subject, which is also what I pointed out.
    Ok then if congress cannot make no law concerning it then they didnt. Becasue under God has nothing to do with establishments of religion. God is a spirit not a religion. Do you at least understand that? And an establishment is formerly and mostly known as a place. Please show me otherwise. And I will be more abliged to argue with you on this point.

    I love the arguments so keep them coming.

  9. #479
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    No its not as for even columbusite has staated the constitution word for word which states the establishments of religion not the phrases of religion. So your wrong already. Shall I debacle you too? I really hate to do this to a moderator. But you asked for it
    Oh no, please don't debacle me! Anyways, you are wrong.

    Give me a link to a ammendment or a bill or something where it says that word for word.
    How about this:

    "The Board of Regents as amicus curiae, the respondents and intervenors all concede the religious nature of prayer, but seek to distinguish this prayer because it is based on our spiritual heritage.

    The petitioners contend among other things that the state laws requiring or permitting use of the Regents prayer must be struck down as a violation of the Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a government program to further religious beliefs. For this reason, petitioners argue, the State's use of the Regents' prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with this contention since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that in this country it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as part of a religious program carried on by government."

    Majority opinion, Engel v. Vitale.

    There it is for you in black and white. This case is almost IDENTICAL to Engel v. Vitale, the only reason it hasn't been decided in Summary Judgment is because the interest groups allied in favor of keeping "under god" in the pledge are so powerful. The fact of the matter is, the courts decided this matter over 40 years ago, and it will meet the same fate.

    The truth(fact) is that I can pray at my school and hold discussions of religious conatations and debates. I can recite partsof the Bible if I wanted to for it is in some books and pamphlets in public school and college in History courses. I would appreciate it if you brought facts to the table not opinions and rhetoric.
    You're right, you can. But what you cannot do is mandate that that prayer be recited each day.

    This is bologna due to the fact being before every meeting in the continental congress they started the day by holding prayer. So now tell me that prayer had nothing to do with the foundations and in the making of the constitution. Even prayer isnt unconstitutional. Now if they make you say prayer then it becomes unconstitutional. Remember this is public school not gov. school. So in public places people are allowed to pray wherever they sit and read whatever they would like. So a public place where people meet to learn and teach is no different.
    Uh, because you say that a Supreme Court precedent is bologna makes it so? What the founders did has no bearing on what the constitution says. The founders supported slavery, and suffrage for white, property holding males only. I don't see people using that as an argument against the 15th and 19th amendments...

    I think you'll be suprised to find out that SKILMATIC stepped up and debacled all their arguments. I have debated this topic before in debate club at my local college and debated this very topic against 3 prominent professors and won 7-3 and 1 was neutral out of 10 panelists.]
    Well, that's cute that you "debacled" the arguments. If only you had the courts, history, precedent, or logic on your side, maybe you could have "debated" them properly.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    I think you'll be suprised to find out that SKILMATIC stepped up and debacled all their arguments. I have debated this topic before in debate club at my local college and debated this very topic against 3 prominent professors and won 7-3 and 1 was neutral out of 10 panelists.
    I think it's best you don't name your college. With you beating out 3 professors (prominent ones, at that) you wouldn't want to sully your college's reputation. Of course, it is very possible (read: probable) that the panelists were even more misinformed than yourself.

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