View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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  • Yes

    133 56.36%
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    103 43.64%
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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #461
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    The phrase "under god" in the Pledge of Allegience is unconstitutional.

    The insertion of religious phrases into daily life in public schools was deemed unconstitutional by Engel v Vitale, and was affirmed by many, many cases to follow.

    The fact that the phrase was instituted by a democratically elected Congress does not change the fact that it was illegal to do so:

    "Our Founders were no more willing to let the content of their prayers and their privilege of praying whenever they pleased be influenced by the ballot box than they were to let these vital matters of personal conscience depend on the succession of monarchs." - Justice Black, majority opinion, Engel v. Vitale

    I think that a lot of people will be surprised when this case comes before the SC and is decided in favor of the petitioners by a margin of 9-0. There's no Potter Stewarts left on the court.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Educator Columbusite's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightatNYU
    The phrase "under god" in the Pledge of Allegience is unconstitutional.

    The insertion of religious phrases into daily life in public schools was deemed unconstitutional by Engel v Vitale, and was affirmed by many, many cases to follow.

    The fact that the phrase was instituted by a democratically elected Congress does not change the fact that it was illegal to do so:

    "Our Founders were no more willing to let the content of their prayers and their privilege of praying whenever they pleased be influenced by the ballot box than they were to let these vital matters of personal conscience depend on the succession of monarchs." - Justice Black, majority opinion, Engel v. Vitale

    I think that a lot of people will be surprised when this case comes before the SC and is decided in favor of the petitioners by a margin of 9-0. There's no Potter Stewarts left on the court.
    Wow! Something reasonable coming out of a republican's mouth!!! Just, wow!
    That a conservative would come to the same conclusion, I am not surprised. (See that? I distinguished between republicans and conservatives)

  3. #463
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    Wow! Something reasonable coming out of a republican's mouth!!! Just, wow!
    That a conservative would come to the same conclusion, I am not surprised. (See that? I distinguished between republicans and conservatives)
    Hahahaha, like I said, I think people will be surprised with the final decision. Justices such as Scalia, Thomas, and (soon to be) Roberts who are labeled as "Republican" are all smart enough to see this too. I have it on good authority that Roberts believes that "under god" is unconstitutional.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    The pledge, as it is now, is religious. The Liberty Bell was here BEFORE our Cosntitution was written AND unlike the 10 commandments does not claim to be the law of the land. The quote itself, ""Proclaim Liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof," is not acknowledging God/authority of the Bible. Quite unlike what we are discussing.
    Again it doesnt matter its in the Bible remember? Prolly something you werent even aware of until I told you. Which is impartly why your argument is muddled. So now you say becasue the bell was manufactured before the constitution its ok? So if the pledge was inacted before our constitution having "under god" in it from your own words it would be ok. And again the 10 commandments are the same thing from what you just said. I cant beleive you think you have an argument on this, . You just got debacled again.

    So this isnt even about god in the constitution its about being made before the constitution was made. Now I get it

    Hey I am just stating what you just said. So dont get mad at me. I believe it will be a very strenuous debate from here on out due to the fact your statements are in direct contradictory with what you just said.

    In a nutshell here it is. Becasue the liberty bell was made before the constitution it is totally ok. But becasue the pledge and the 10 commandments werent made before the constitution then they arent constitutional. Thats the argument at hand. You cant say the Bible being on the liberty BELL is constitutional, but God and the 10 commandments which are also in the Bible arent constitutional. I dont think thats being fair Mr. Columbusite.

    The time that it was implemented means nothing. Its not even a factor. The fact is that all of it is here today amidst us. So if you are going to side with one then its got to be all becasue they are all essentialy the same issue. Which you already sided with one so if you all the sudden decided you opposed it all the sudden then its suffice to say that your argument has been voided at all costs. But if you finally see the light in that they are all basically the same issue at hand and you agreed then I would say you have gained some common sense. Please let me know that you have common sense.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightatNYU
    Hahahaha, like I said, I think people will be surprised with the final decision. Justices such as Scalia, Thomas, and (soon to be) Roberts who are labeled as "Republican" are all smart enough to see this too. I have it on good authority that Roberts believes that "under god" is unconstitutional.
    I admit that while I am somewhat uneasy about Roberts due to not knowing much about him and rightwingers cheering him on (including rightwing Christians), at the same time he hasn't demonstrated that he is a threat to the Constitution and I haven't seen enough to show he is. If one were to dissent though, I would guess Scalia, and I wouldn't be surprised. I'm hoping he'll surprise me.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by C.J.
    So your superior english skills tell you that congress shall make no law showing any respect for a building? Unbelievable! No need to give you an english lesson.
    What?!!! When did I say that? Do you even know how to disect a sentence? The constitution as it is written states that there should be no law passed that would incorporate the establishment of religion meaning its properties and denominations. No where does that imply to God or spirits or man for that point.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    Again it doesnt matter its in the Bible remember? Prolly something you werent even aware of until I told you. Which is impartly why your argument is muddled. So now you say becasue the bell was manufactured before the constitution its ok? So if the pledge was inacted before our constitution having "under god" in it from your own words it would be ok. And again the 10 commandments are the same thing from what you just said. I cant beleive you think you have an argument on this, . You just got debacled again.

    So this isnt even about god in the constitution its about being made before the constitution was made. Now I get it

    Hey I am just stating what you just said. So dont get mad at me. I believe it will be a very strenuous debate from here on out due to the fact your statements are in direct contradictory with what you just said.

    In a nutshell here it is. Becasue the liberty bell was made before the constitution it is totally ok. But becasue the pledge and the 10 commandments werent made before the constitution then they arent constitutional. Thats the argument at hand. You cant say the Bible being on the liberty BELL is constitutional, but God and the 10 commandments which are also in the Bible arent constitutional. I dont think thats being fair Mr. Columbusite.

    The time that it was implemented means nothing. Its not even a factor. The fact is that all of it is here today amidst us. So if you are going to side with one then its got to be all becasue they are all essentialy the same issue. Which you already sided with one so if you all the sudden decided you opposed it all the sudden then its suffice to say that your argument has been voided at all costs. But if you finally see the light in that they are all basically the same issue at hand and you agreed then I would say you have gained some common sense. Please let me know that you have common sense.
    Ugh, I had already discussed the chaplains which I said would continue due to tradition in that it was implemented before our Constitution. The difference here is that I am against the chaplains for congress. We're paying for them you know. Now with the Liberty Bell, if it was unconstitutional (I'm certain it isn't) I would be for it being removed like the chaplains. But the Liberty Bell is not government acknowleding God/religion. The quote itself is does neither on it's own, unlike the Bible. That quote is not the Bible, sorry.

  8. #468
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    Again it doesnt matter its in the Bible remember? Prolly something you werent even aware of until I told you. Which is impartly why your argument is muddled. So now you say becasue the bell was manufactured before the constitution its ok? So if the pledge was inacted before our constitution having "under god" in it from your own words it would be ok. And again the 10 commandments are the same thing from what you just said. I cant beleive you think you have an argument on this, . You just got debacled again.

    So this isnt even about god in the constitution its about being made before the constitution was made. Now I get it

    Hey I am just stating what you just said. So dont get mad at me. I believe it will be a very strenuous debate from here on out due to the fact your statements are in direct contradictory with what you just said.

    In a nutshell here it is. Becasue the liberty bell was made before the constitution it is totally ok. But becasue the pledge and the 10 commandments werent made before the constitution then they arent constitutional. Thats the argument at hand. You cant say the Bible being on the liberty BELL is constitutional, but God and the 10 commandments which are also in the Bible arent constitutional. I dont think thats being fair Mr. Columbusite.

    The time that it was implemented means nothing. Its not even a factor. The fact is that all of it is here today amidst us. So if you are going to side with one then its got to be all becasue they are all essentialy the same issue. Which you already sided with one so if you all the sudden decided you opposed it all the sudden then its suffice to say that your argument has been voided at all costs. But if you finally see the light in that they are all basically the same issue at hand and you agreed then I would say you have gained some common sense. Please let me know that you have common sense.

    The fact that the Liberty Bell has a biblical quote on it does make it religious in nature. However, this does not necessarily mean that it is not proper for government to be endorsing of it. There are special exemptions for religion in the public arena that have been deemed constitutional by the courts.

    A) In cases of conflict between Establishment and Free Exercise
    B) Establishment and Exercises in legislative bodies
    C) Non-Devotional use of the Bible in the Public Schools
    D) Uniform tax exemptions incidentally available to religious institutions
    E) Religious considerations in public welfare programs
    F) Activities which, though religious in origin, have ceased to be religious in nature

    The last one there is what the Liberty Bell would fall under. It is also the same precedent that the defendents in the "under God" case will be claiming exonerates them, but the circumstances point pretty clearly toward the pledge not falling under this clause.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  9. #469
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    I admit that while I am somewhat uneasy about Roberts due to not knowing much about him and rightwingers cheering him on (including rightwing Christians), at the same time he hasn't demonstrated that he is a threat to the Constitution and I haven't seen enough to show he is. If one were to dissent though, I would guess Scalia, and I wouldn't be surprised. I'm hoping he'll surprise me.
    One of my professors went to law school with Roberts, edited the Harvard Law Review with him, and clerked for Chief Justice Burger at the same time that Roberts clerked for Rehnquist. The professor is a moderate-leftie who was nominated to DC Appeals Court by both Clinton and Bush II, and he says that Roberts is, in his opinion, one of the finest possible candidates in the country for that position. From the anecdotes he tells us about clerking together, he seems to be a pretty affable guy, and I don't doubt that he'll be an asset to the court for the next few decades to come, surprising many.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  10. #470
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightatNYU
    The fact that the Liberty Bell has a biblical quote on it does make it religious in nature. However, this does not necessarily mean that it is not proper for government to be endorsing of it. There are special exemptions for religion in the public arena that have been deemed constitutional by the courts.

    A) In cases of conflict between Establishment and Free Exercise
    B) Establishment and Exercises in legislative bodies
    C) Non-Devotional use of the Bible in the Public Schools
    D) Uniform tax exemptions incidentally available to religious institutions
    E) Religious considerations in public welfare programs
    F) Activities which, though religious in origin, have ceased to be religious in nature

    The last one there is what the Liberty Bell would fall under. It is also the same precedent that the defendents in the "under God" case will be claiming exonerates them, but the circumstances point pretty clearly toward the pledge not falling under this clause.
    Well, that is interesting to know. I just figured that it was OK since the quote taken out of context is harmless on it's own.

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