View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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    133 56.36%
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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    I understand but it is just giving respect to the establishment of a religion meaning the place of worship. You do know what an establishment is right? Its a place. Well a place(establishment) of a religion is the place in which they gather and worship. So its in respect to those places(establishments) of worship. Again its just referring to religions not anything else.
    Congress shall make no law respecting (Concerning or regarding) an establishment (The act of establishing a permanent organization) of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
    I read a report that said the typical symptoms of stress were eating too much, drinking too much, impulse buying, and driving too fast. Who are they kidding? That's my idea of a perfect day.----Unknown

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by C.J.
    Congress shall make no law respecting (Concerning or regarding) an establishment (The act of establishing a permanent organization) of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
    I love how you just added your own words into the constitution.

    But again all those adjectives would be describing what? Is it the subject? Is it the preposition? Is it the DO? Or is it the Object of the prepostion?

    Yes it is the subject which is? Yep thats right the establishment(not religion). So once again your wrong anyways .

    Religion is the object of the prepositional phrase which has no connections with the adjectives outside it. Please learn proper English gentlemen it will alleviate all this meaningless argument.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    So again who or what is the congress making no law against? Is it religion or the establishment?

    I beleive it states the establishment so therefore it is the DO and it is in direct connection to what the subject(congress) is referring to which is the DO(establishments)

    and religion is the object of the preposition.

    Thank you have a nice day

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    This country has managed quite nicely with steady improvements with no noticable or mass conversions of athiests into holy rollers before the concept of erasing any reference of religious belief or history from public view caught on just a couple of decades ago. In a very few instances in which nonbelievers were illegally assaulted or harrassed, the law acted swiftly and effectively to protect the nonbeliever's right to be a nonbeliever.
    I don't see anyone "erasing any reference of religious belief from history or public view". I do see people calling out the government on it's preference shown towards religion, which it isn't supposed to do. For example, when it is the 10 commandments, by itself, in a government building it does not belong there. Such a thing gives the false impression that our laws are derived from them when they are most certainly not and it is respecting an establishment of religion. What you are describing simply isn't matching up with reality.

    At such time as the government attempts to define who or what God is in any specific terms; at such time as the government attaches 'Christian' or any other specific religious belief to the Pledge (or anywhere else) for public consumption, then I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you to protest that.
    Like I said, I am for preventing such a thing from happening. Waiting until it happens would be a big mistake. We must be remain vigilant and keep the wall of separation up.

    They aren't doing that in this case. "Under God" in the Pledge is not specified as any particular god, any particular faith, or any particular belief, and is not a requirement for anybody to say. I don't understand how anybody thinks tolerance can be tolerance when it is only granted in one direction. If the Christians or any other people of faith tolerate the athiests and impose no penalty or prejudice on them for their athiesm, that is tolerance. It is not too much to ask of the athiests that they also be tolerant of people of faith.
    Specific or not it is government endorsement of religion. I've already went into detail how requiring the pledge to be said is moot. It is government endorsement of religion that is the issue here. Reverting the pledge back to the way it was is not one-way or intolerant. Unlike the current pledge which favors religion, the former pledge favors neither religion, nor atheism, nor agnsoticism. That pledge is tolerant of both people of faith and of no faith. It was written after the civil war to emphasize unity. It only makes sense that the pledge be inclusive rather than exclusive. By the way, I am a Deist, just for the record so it isn't just Atheists pushing for this.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    Yes the issue is not letting religion/God in the gov. Well if I am not mistaken the liberty bell is a trademark of this country and it has incribed on it a passage form the Word of God. So I think this has everything to do with the same topic. So you agree we should destroy the bell?

    And this is a democracy. Once we got the electoral college it soley became a democracy. Majority rules period! It is like that in congress, in the senate, and in the coutrooms. Where have you been?
    The Liberty Bell isn't strictly religious, like the 10 commandments or "under God", and that verse taken out of context is one that I can agree with. A democracy, huh? Hmm, then why are we a Federal Republic?

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    The Liberty Bell isn't strictly religious, like the 10 commandments or "under God", and that verse taken out of context is one that I can agree with. A democracy, huh? Hmm, then why are we a Federal Republic?
    Well the pledge isnt strictly religious either, like the 10 commandements or "under god". Well the fact is its a verse from the Bible, so you agree that having a very religious books verse(which also refers to God in its context) on a federal gov object(liberty bell)? And then you rebuke the 10 commandments which are also in the Bible(which I also think you agree with and its also taken out of context) that are on federal and local gov courts? Ok I think this is very contradictory with what you just said. Can you say debacled?

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    I don't see anyone "erasing any reference of religious belief from history or public view". I do see people calling out the government on it's preference shown towards religion, which it isn't supposed to do. For example, when it is the 10 commandments, by itself, in a government building it does not belong there. Such a thing gives the false impression that our laws are derived from them when they are most certainly not and it is respecting an establishment of religion. What you are describing simply isn't matching up with reality.
    And I think your rationale doesn't match up with reality. The first settlers on the west brought with them their priests and monks with the intention of religion being the first established institution in the new land. The first settlers in the east went there specifically to gain religious freedom (even though most had no intention of allowing that for anybody else.) Religion is more a part of American history and culture than any other single factor. To think that people would not wish to acknowledge that is completely unrealistic.

    Like I said, I am for preventing such a thing from happening. Waiting until it happens would be a big mistake. We must be remain vigilant and keep the wall of separation up.
    The wall of separation was never intended to separate government from religion; it was intended to protect religion from government. As the interrelationship of religion and government caused no problems whatsoever for the first 180+ years of our nation's history, there is no precedence for thinking it will cause a problem now. We have the technology and ability now to prevent lots of bad things from happening but the use of it would be far worse than the risk.

    Specific or not it is government endorsement of religion. I've already went into detail how requiring the pledge to be said is moot. It is government endorsement of religion that is the issue here. Reverting the pledge back to the way it was is not one-way or intolerant. Unlike the current pledge which favors religion, the former pledge favors neither religion, nor atheism, nor agnsoticism. That pledge is tolerant of both people of faith and of no faith. It was written after the civil war to emphasize unity. It only makes sense that the pledge be inclusive rather than exclusive. By the way, I am a Deist, just for the record so it isn't just Atheists pushing for this.
    It is an acknowledgement of religion, not an endorsement. If it was an endorsement, then school chldren would be required to say it. It is a custom, a patriotic exercise, and, until recently, was viewed as a positive thing to do for all who cared to do it. It is my opinion the it is nothing but intolerance for a small angry minority to seek to deny those who choose to recite the Pledge, as it is, the right to do that. Anybody could see that adding extra words would be disruptive, while just not saying the words would not be.
    Last edited by AlbqOwl; 09-27-05 at 12:05 AM.
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    I understand but it is just giving respect to the establishment of a religion meaning the place of worship. You do know what an establishment is right? Its a place. Well a place(establishment) of a religion is the place in which they gather and worship. So its in respect to those places(establishments) of worship. Again its just referring to religions not anything else.
    OK. Time to pull out the dictionary. (dictionary.com, that is)

    es·tab·lish·ment Audio pronunciation of "establishment" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-stblsh-mnt)
    n.

    1.
    1. The act of establishing.
    2. The condition or fact of being established.
    2. Something established, as:
    1. An arranged order or system, especially a legal code.
    2. A permanent civil, political, or military organization.
    3. An established church.
    4. A place of residence or business with its possessions and staff.
    5. A public or private institution, such as a hospital or school.
    3. often Establishment An established social order, as:
    1. A group of people holding most of the power and influence in a government or society. Often used with the.
    2. A controlling group in a given field of activity. Often used with the.

    As you can see this word goes beyond "place of worship". If the framers wanted to say "place of worship" or "church" they would have said so. Insetad they carefully chose the word "establishment" and not just because it's fancy.

    No but we had Godand prayer, mind you, in our schools. So gotcha there.
    What do you mean that we "had" God and prayer in schools? We still do. Looks like I found a way out.

    I feel the same way. Why dont you all get out on the battlefield and see how patriotic you get? True patriots fight for their rights and secure them. Look, you cant tell me or preach to me about patriotism for I say it like Patrick Henry does. Yes, I would die before I get enslaved by any regime. I think debating on what we look at while we recite the pledge is meaningless. I could say it looking at a dumpster for all I care. The words mean the same regardless. Saying the pledge infront of a constitution isnt nothing different IMO.
    I don't even think you have to go as far to fight, but to stand up for what our Constitution says in order to be a patriotic American. That can certainly include fighting for it. The words start off with "I pledge allegiance, to the flag" I was saying that if we should make a pledge to something, it should be to our Constitution, not a flag (even though ours is very nice).

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    Well the pledge isnt strictly religious either, like the 10 commandements or "under god". Well the fact is its a verse from the Bible, so you agree that having a very religious books verse(which also refers to God in its context) on a federal gov object(liberty bell)? And then you rebuke the 10 commandments which are also in the Bible(which I also think you agree with and its also taken out of context) that are on federal and local gov courts? Ok I think this is very contradictory with what you just said. Can you say debacled?
    The pledge, as it is now, is religious. The Liberty Bell was here BEFORE our Cosntitution was written AND unlike the 10 commandments does not claim to be the law of the land. The quote itself, ""Proclaim Liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof," is not acknowledging God/authority of the Bible. Quite unlike what we are discussing.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    I love how you just added your own words into the constitution.

    But again all those adjectives would be describing what? Is it the subject? Is it the preposition? Is it the DO? Or is it the Object of the prepostion?

    Yes it is the subject which is? Yep thats right the establishment(not religion). So once again your wrong anyways .

    Religion is the object of the prepositional phrase which has no connections with the adjectives outside it. Please learn proper English gentlemen it will alleviate all this meaningless argument.
    So your superior english skills tell you that congress shall make no law showing any respect for a building? Unbelievable! No need to give you an english lesson.
    I read a report that said the typical symptoms of stress were eating too much, drinking too much, impulse buying, and driving too fast. Who are they kidding? That's my idea of a perfect day.----Unknown

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