View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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    133 56.36%
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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #431
    Banned SKILMATIC's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    It's not just any phrase, it was singed into law. Separation never happened? Gee , that explains why all our laws are based on the Bible and why there is a religious test for public office. Not all courts have 10 commandments in them due having to take them down because of preference of religion being shown by the government. Which just so happens to be unconstitutional. You see, I don't just have the Constitution on my side (which alone is all I really need to disprove your claim), but also precedent. The official oath one must swear on does NOT include putting your hand on the Bible, that was something extra that was added. Presidents have done so before their term, but added "so help me God" themselves which they are free to do. Let's look at the exact wording, "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." Hmm..."so help me God" seems to be something added on and not endorsed by our government. In the courts they shouldn't require you to put your hand on the Bible, but do anyway. All that proves is that people in this country have tried to get around what our Constitution says and have had some success. If you actually think this country was founded on the Bible, then it is obvious you haven't read it. The NT emphasizes obedience to authority. That includes slaves being obedient to their masters, women to men, and nations to kings. Look at the colonies and you will see why the framers kept religion out. They didn't want people being executed for denying the Trinity, cursing, blasphemy, etc. They wanted people to have freedom of conscience, speech, etc. None of which had ever before been attained in
    the all the 1700+ years of Christendom. They weren't about to make the same mistake that had been made over and over by including God in government. Our Constitution is godless and there is nothing you can say to make it otherwise. Separation of church and state is a founding principle and intrinsically American, even moreso than apple pie (which I've just had a fair share of).
    Look I am not saying that it is good or bad to have God in the gov. I am just stating what you are arguing over is silly. Thats all. And in no way does it say in the constitution that under god shall not be in our pledge and vice versa. So I have the constotution on my side just as much as you think you do.

  2. #432
    Educator Columbusite's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    Look I am not saying that it is good or bad to have God in the gov. I am just stating what you are arguing over is silly. Thats all. And in no way does it say in the constitution that under god shall not be in our pledge and vice versa. So I have the constotution on my side just as much as you think you do.
    If you don't know whether it is good or bad to have God in government, why are you here? I would hope after reading my post (and it wouldn't hurt to read some of the history of Christianity in government) that you would see that, yes, it is bad to have God in government. The Constitution does not say that "under god shall not be in our pledge". I don't think anyone will find such a quote there, just like it doesn't say "spearation of church and state". The Constitution basically deals with what the government can and cannot do (fyi). It is perfectly fine for people to alter the pledge and make it religious, but not the government. The Constitution states that (here we go again) "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Now, I'll try to explain to you as best I can (though I am talking to someone who can't tell the difference between endorse and enforce, so I'll just use "preference" instead) that Congress passing a bill that adds the phrase "under God" (which is clearly religious) signed it into law, a law respecting or in other words, regarding, establishment of religion. The Constitution certainly is on one of our sides on this issue. I'll let you guess who that is (hint: not you). Oh, and as to this being "silly" just read some of the things that people who cite the pledge/currency/commandments as proof that this is a Christian nation that should return to it's "Biblical foundation" (non-existant of course, in government) are aiming for. It is anything but silly.

  3. #433
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    Just dont say it without the phrase simple as that end of discussion.
    Simple, we're agreed. We'll have Congress rescind the law requiring the phrase and then everything will be hunky dory.

    I'm glad you finally managed to see the light of reason.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    To make it perfectly plain:

    If, as Skilmatic claims, the phrase "under god" has absolutely no meaning, then not only is there no point in requiring the phrase as a matter of law, it's presence in the law introduces ambiguity of intent and discord in the public discourse.

    Change the law to reflect Skilmatic's contention, ie, ditch the useless words.

    On the other hand, if the phrase has weight; if the words "under God" are indeed intended as asseveration of divine guidance, then they violate the First Amendment and are illegal.

    So what is it, meaningless phrase, or illegal mystical nonsense?

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    Banned SKILMATIC's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    To make it perfectly plain:

    If, as Skilmatic claims, the phrase "under god" has absolutely no meaning, then not only is there no point in requiring the phrase as a matter of law, it's presence in the law introduces ambiguity of intent and discord in the public discourse.

    Change the law to reflect Skilmatic's contention, ie, ditch the useless words.

    On the other hand, if the phrase has weight; if the words "under God" are indeed intended as asseveration of divine guidance, then they violate the First Amendment and are illegal.

    So what is it, meaningless phrase, or illegal mystical nonsense?
    Neither, its not unconstituational either way until they make you say the phrase by verbatim. You have no case. Most of the founding fathers were christian but they knew not to implement religion into the gov not God. God isnt a religion. God is a spirit much like angels. This is what you people fail to realize. Hate to break it to you but your right, the gov shoudnt endorse or enforce religion upon an individual but God isnt a religion. He is a spirit that religions worship under. So in concordance to your words it would be unconstitutional if the phrase had "under catholicism" or any other religion. Now what if it said "under Washington?(which is a spirit now casue he is dead)" Is it unconstitutional? Or how about this? What about "under Jesus(which is also a spirit)" who is also a man? Is it now unconstitutional? Or how about "under skilmatic?" You see where I am going with this?

    How about "under the forefathers?" Who are also spirits much like God is. Hey there are some individuals who worship the founding fathers; should we erradicate them from our history and our constitution?

    Do you understnad now?

  6. #436
    Educator Columbusite's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    Neither, its not unconstituational either way until they make you say the phrase by verbatim. You have no case. Most of the founding fathers were christian but they knew not to implement religion into the gov not God. God isnt a religion. God is a spirit much like angels. This is what you people fail to realize. Hate to break it to you but your right, the gov shoudnt endorse or enforce religion upon an individual but God isnt a religion. He is a spirit that religions worship under. So in concordance to your words it would be unconstitutional if the phrase had "under catholicism" or any other religion. Now what if it said "under Washington?(which is a spirit now casue he is dead)" Is it unconstitutional? Or how about this? What about "under Jesus(which is also a spirit)" who is also a man? Is it now unconstitutional? Or how about "under skilmatic?" You see where I am going with this?

    How about "under the forefathers?" Who are also spirits much like God is. Hey there are some individuals who worship the founding fathers; should we erradicate them from our history and our constitution?

    Do you understnad now?
    Hate to break it to you, but "under God" is a religious phrase and it is not necessary for government to force you to say the pledge or a prayer for it to be unconstitutional which you admit later on and contradict yourself, so which is it? Is it unconstitutional for government to show preference of religion or is it necessary for it to be forced on people before it is uncosntitutional? It is, and has been found unconstitutional for the government to officialy favor religion. The phrase was made into a law regarding an establishment of religion. This is what is unconstitutional whether you like it or not. "under the forefathers", unlike "under God" would not lead to an establishment of religion, but would be an unnecessary phrase. If I had to choose to add something it would be "one nation, under the Constitution" as I had seen in an article I posted earlier.

  7. #437
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    Most of the founding fathers were christian but they knew not to implement religion into the gov not God. God isnt a religion.
    Ah, so you are denounsing God just like Peter did. 3 times before the rooster crows, right? Amazing the amount of outright lies that fundamentalists will spew to push their false claims. Almost as if they have forgotten God's instruction to not bear false witness. Fundamentalists obviously spit God in the eye. I am saddened that fundies like you denigrade God by making it seems like all Christians lie for the promotion of their theocracy.

    Note to everybody. Most Christians are NOT as dishonest and deceptive as skilmatic and his fellow pharisees. We follow God's word, we don't push theocratic policies through deception and lies, as that is directly contrary to God's word. Sorry that you all are exposed to such un-Christian behavior from those who call on God for their bigoted oppressive policies.
    God is a spirit much like angels.
    Way to go, demeaning God. Satan wispered that lie in your ear?
    This is what you people fail to realize. Hate to break it to you but your right, the gov shoudnt endorse or enforce religion upon an individual but God isnt a religion. He is a spirit that religions worship under. So in concordance to your words it would be unconstitutional if the phrase had "under catholicism" or any other religion. Now what if it said "under Washington?(which is a spirit now casue he is dead)" Is it unconstitutional? Or how about this? What about "under Jesus(which is also a spirit)" who is also a man? Is it now unconstitutional? Or how about "under skilmatic?" You see where I am going with this?
    Yes, you are going for dishonest sophistry. And establishment of Christianity is the establishment of religion. Your shocking lying about God obviously doesn't trigger even a minimum of remorse in you. What do you think ou are doing? Lying for Jesus? Jesus doesn't need your lies.
    Do you understnad now?
    I understand that you feel it OK to bear false witness to push your political agenda. You are spitting God in the eye, you are USING God for your personal politics. Shame on you.
    Last edited by steen; 09-26-05 at 08:52 PM.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Say what you want but your wrong in every shape and form. Your whole argument was only gov shouldnt enforce or endorse religion which is what the constitution says. But in no way does it say phrases or words or God. Sorry but your wrong once again. And I hate yo break it to you again but you dont have the constitution on your side becasue I have checked and no where in it does it even mention phrases or words.

    Again God isnt a religion. Yes He has to do with religion but hes not a religion. Again what if it said "under Washington?" Is that wrong does the constitution say anything against that?

  9. #439
    Banned SKILMATIC's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Ah, so you are denounsing God just like Peter did. 3 times before the rooster crows, right?
    How did I acheive this? Please explain instead of using personal attacks for your defense it really is starting to get old. Is that all you mental disorders can do? Please I would really like a edumacated debate not some childish rhetoric crap that doesnt even make an ounce of sense from what I said.

    Amazing the amount of outright lies that fundamentalists will spew to push their false claims.
    Do you even know what a fundamentalist is? How am I one and how did I spew false claims? Tell me mr. Genius.

    Almost as if they have forgotten God's instruction to not bear false witness.
    Again dont even know what that means either. That means that someone on earth is professing they are Christ. WHEN DID I PROFESS I WAS CHRIST?

    Fundamentalists obviously spit God in the eye. I am saddened that fundies like you denigrade God by making it seems like all Christians lie for the promotion of their theocracy.
    First of all I am upholding God not denouncing him of degrading Him. And second of all where are you getting all this from? Seriously, are you on some sort of drugs or something?

    Most Christians are NOT as dishonest and deceptive as skilmatic and his fellow pharisees. We follow God's word, we don't push theocratic policies through deception and lies, as that is directly contrary to God's word. Sorry that you all are exposed to such un-Christian behavior from those who call on God for their bigoted oppressive policies.
    Again you proclaim I have lied but about what? You still avent even made an adequate argument. I am trying to uphold God AND YOU ARE THE ONE WHO WANTS TO TEAR HIM DOWN FROM EVERYTHING YOU KNOW. So again what have I lied about?

    Way to go, demeaning God. Satan wispered that lie in your ear?
    How did that post demean God? Are you saying that becasue I said that God is much like an angel you imply that thats a degrading remark? I thought being an angel is a good thing as the world sees it? Unless you think that all angels are evil?

    Yes, you are going for dishonest sophistry.
    Huh? Are you seriously even reading any of my posts? Or are you erratically just spewing nonsense to people to draw attention to yourself?

    And establishment of Christianity is the establishment of religion.
    Uh huh and when did I say this wasnt true? I agree with that. So what say you?????

    Your shocking lying about God obviously doesn't trigger even a minimum of remorse in you
    Well it would if I did lie about God. Please enlighten me sir when did I lie about Him? Please give specific examples please. I will be awaiting

    What do you think ou are doing? Lying for Jesus? Jesus doesn't need your lies.
    This is just funny

    I understand that you feel it OK to bear false witness to push your political agenda. You are spitting God in the eye, you are USING God for your personal politics. Shame on you.
    And pelase tell me how I am doing this?

  10. #440
    Educator Columbusite's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    Say what you want but your wrong in every shape and form. Your whole argument was only gov shouldnt enforce or endorse religion which is what the constitution says. But in no way does it say phrases or words or God. Sorry but your wrong once again. And I hate yo break it to you again but you dont have the constitution on your side becasue I have checked and no where in it does it even mention phrases or words.

    Again God isnt a religion. Yes He has to do with religion but hes not a religion. Again what if it said "under Washington?" Is that wrong does the constitution say anything against that?
    Adding "under God" to our pledge is showing preference to religion which is unconstitutional. What is so difficult to understand? At least we are on the same page as far as preference of religion (by the government) being unconstitutional. I would think it's obvious that when phrases or words adopted by the government show preference of religion (which you stated is unconstitutional), that they are unconstitutional. What form the religious preference takes is of no matter. The 1st amendment does not specify the form of "law respecting an establishment of religion". That means it goes for ANY form PERIOD. All you have to do is read the 1st amendment, because where those phrases and words (such as God) are in violation of the 1st amendment, they cannot be supported by our government. "Yes He has to do with religion" Thank you, that is all I need. The phrase "under God" is, in turn, a religious phrase. One that clearly favors religion. Like I already said, "under Washington" would just be extraneous and wouldn't make much sense, unlike "under the Constitution" which is true since that is the document this country is based on and is also tangible.
    Last edited by Columbusite; 09-26-05 at 09:33 PM.

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