View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #391
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by shuamort
    The problem with your defense is obvious. You're equating "god", or in this case "God" to mean anything. Which. It. Doesn't. You'll need to back up your claim with facts that "God" could mean anything to anyone, including atheists.
    If 'God' in the Pledge does not mean whatever one wishes it to mean, please show me the specific instruction or order that dictates who or what "God" in the Pledge is. Show me the evidence that relates "God' to any particular denomination or any specific religion or faith group.

    Quick history lesson:

    In 1892, a Boston-based youth magazine–a private non-government entity–called “The Youth’s Companion” published the first wording of the a Pledge recommended for school children to recite in honor of Columbus Day that year (the 400th year celebration).

    “I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
    and to the Republic for which it stands:
    one Nation indivisible,
    With Liberty and Justice for all.” (1892)

    The concept caught on and was popular (and purely voluntery) in America’s schools after that.

    In 1923, another non-government private gathering of a National Flag Conference added the words to designate the Pledge as one to the American flag as opposed to any other flag:

    “I pledge allegiance to the
    Flag of the United States,
    and to the Republic for which it stands:
    one Nation indivisible,
    With Liberty and Justice for all,”

    (A year later that was changed to be ‘the Flag of the United States of America’.)

    The new version was also quickly adopted and voluntarily recited by school children. There was no government involvement at all at this point.

    On June 22, 1942, the US Congress included the “Pledge to the Flag in the US Flag Code (Title 36). This was the first official sanction by government of the Pledge that had already been recited by school children for more than 50 years. A year later, as a free speech issue, the US Supreme Court ruled that school children could not be forced to recite the Pledge.

    In 1945, the Pledge received its official designation as “The Pledge of Allegiance”.

    The last change was made by President Dwight D. Eisenhower on Flag Day, June 14, 1954, when he authorized the inclusion of the “under God” phrase in the Pledge. President Eisenhower's official proclamation was:

    "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."

    There is no mention of a specific religion, Christian or otherwise, or any specific relgious instruction. It is an affirmation of the importance of religious faith in America’s heritage and future. It is still important in America’s hertiage and future. When it no longer is, the phrase will certainly be dropped. Until then, it is in no way an establishment of religion, it is in no way mandatory for any person to say, believe, or act upon and there is no consequence for saying or not saying the Pledge, and thus is it not unconstitutional.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #392
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    If 'God' in the Pledge does not mean whatever one wishes it to mean, please show me the specific instruction or order that dictates who or what "God" in the Pledge is. Show me the evidence that relates "God' to any particular denomination or any specific religion or faith group.
    You mean besides taking the facts, flattening them down into tablet form and slipping them into your sandwich? Knights of Columbus yadda yadda yadda. I've said it before, you've ignored it then and you're ignoring it now.


    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    There is no mention of a specific religion, Christian or otherwise, or any specific relgious instruction. It is an affirmation of the importance of religious faith in America’s heritage and future. It is still important in America’s hertiage and future. When it no longer is, the phrase will certainly be dropped. Until then, it is in no way an establishment of religion, it is in no way mandatory for any person to say, believe, or act upon and there is no consequence for saying or not saying the Pledge, and thus is it not unconstitutional.
    You're trying to allege, and it's almost humorous, that "god" or "God" has no religious background or connotations at all to it. LOL! And at the same time, mention that it reflects the importance of religious faith. So which is it? You can't have it both ways here.

    On top of that, if we're talking heritage, one would think we would go back to the ORIGINAL pledge and not the bastardized one usurped by the Catholics.


    "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." -Prez Ike

  3. #393
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by shuamort
    You mean besides taking the facts, flattening them down into tablet form and slipping them into your sandwich? Knights of Columbus yadda yadda yadda. I've said it before, you've ignored it then and you're ignoring it now.
    I'm ignoring the Knights of Columbus yadda yadda because they are irrelevent to the premise of the discussion. Anything they thought, believe, or did has zero impact on the premise of this discussion. 99% of Amercians would never even think of them when this topic comes up.

    You're trying to allege, and it's almost humorous, that "god" or "God" has no religious background or connotations at all to it. LOL! And at the same time, mention that it reflects the importance of religious faith. So which is it? You can't have it both ways here.
    Not at all. A 'god' or "God" of course has a religious connotation. Religon was extremely important both to the reason the initial colonies were established on the east coast to the basis for 'inalienable rights' which was pretty much a unique concept at the time, and the belief that morality and moral sense proceeds from a foundation of religious belief. That is our history and our heritage. The phrase 'under God' acknowledges that. It would simply be silly to pretend that U.S. history was never influenced by or did not include religion and religious expression.

    On top of that, if we're talking heritage, one would think we would go back to the ORIGINAL pledge and not the bastardized one usurped by the Catholics.
    We don't think it is a violation of our heritage that we don't do other things in the same manner as they were done in the Nineteenth Century. Why should the Pledge not also evolve? Dwight D. Eisenhower was not a Catholic by the way, nor were more than a handful, if any, members of Congress at that time.


    "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." -Prez Ike
    This is your own unique interpretation that is not shared by the huge majority of Americans.
    Last edited by AlbqOwl; 09-23-05 at 02:35 PM.
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    I'm ignoring the Knights of Columbus yadda yadda because they are irrelevent to the premise of the discussion. Anything they thought, believe, or did has zero impact on the premise of this discussion. 99% of Amercians would never even think of them when this topic comes up.
    So, ignorance is an excuse now? Umm. No. The KoC are the fraternal Catholic organization that were the impetus for this bit of revisionism. They are the ones responsible for it and are thusly relevent.


    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Not at all. A 'god' or "God" of course has a religious connotation. Religon was extremely important both to the reason the initial colonies were established on the east coast to the basis for 'inalienable rights' which was pretty much a unique concept at the time, and the belief that morality and moral sense proceeds from a foundation of religious belief. That is our history and our heritage. The phrase 'under God' acknowledges that. It would simply be silly to pretend that U.S. history was never influenced by or did not include religion and religious expression.
    It would also be silly to ignore the fact that religious freedom and freedom from religion also shaped US history pre-revolution to current as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    We don't think it is a violation of our heritage that we don't do other things in the same manner as they were done in the Nineteenth Century. Why should the Pledge not also evolve? Dwight D. Eisenhower was not a Catholic by the way, nor were more than a handful, if any, members of Congress at that time.
    You're the one beating the drum of heritage but wanting it to change but not. It's cherrypicking the details that support your cause and ignoring those which don't.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    If 'God' in the Pledge does not mean whatever one wishes it to mean, please show me the specific instruction or order that dictates who or what "God" in the Pledge is. Show me the evidence that relates "God' to any particular denomination or any specific religion or faith group.

    Quick history lesson:

    In 1892, a Boston-based youth magazine–a private non-government entity–called “The Youth’s Companion” published the first wording of the a Pledge recommended for school children to recite in honor of Columbus Day that year (the 400th year celebration).

    “I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
    and to the Republic for which it stands:
    one Nation indivisible,
    With Liberty and Justice for all.” (1892)

    The concept caught on and was popular (and purely voluntery) in America’s schools after that.

    In 1923, another non-government private gathering of a National Flag Conference added the words to designate the Pledge as one to the American flag as opposed to any other flag:

    “I pledge allegiance to the
    Flag of the United States,
    and to the Republic for which it stands:
    one Nation indivisible,
    With Liberty and Justice for all,”

    (A year later that was changed to be ‘the Flag of the United States of America’.)

    The new version was also quickly adopted and voluntarily recited by school children. There was no government involvement at all at this point.

    On June 22, 1942, the US Congress included the “Pledge to the Flag in the US Flag Code (Title 36). This was the first official sanction by government of the Pledge that had already been recited by school children for more than 50 years. A year later, as a free speech issue, the US Supreme Court ruled that school children could not be forced to recite the Pledge.

    In 1945, the Pledge received its official designation as “The Pledge of Allegiance”.

    The last change was made by President Dwight D. Eisenhower on Flag Day, June 14, 1954, when he authorized the inclusion of the “under God” phrase in the Pledge. President Eisenhower's official proclamation was:

    "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."

    There is no mention of a specific religion, Christian or otherwise, or any specific relgious instruction. It is an affirmation of the importance of religious faith in America’s heritage and future. It is still important in America’s hertiage and future. When it no longer is, the phrase will certainly be dropped. Until then, it is in no way an establishment of religion, it is in no way mandatory for any person to say, believe, or act upon and there is no consequence for saying or not saying the Pledge, and thus is it not unconstitutional.
    This does not take away from the fact that having "under god" in the official pledge of this country is establishing this country as a religious nation. What else does "one nation, under god" mean?
    "Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." -Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by alex
    This does not take away from the fact that having "under god" in the official pledge of this country is establishing this country as a religious nation. What else does "one nation, under god" mean?
    There is no law, Constitutional or otherwise, that says the nation cannot be religious. The law only specifies that Congress cannot specify what religion the country should or must be. The 'under God' phrase neither establishes a specific religion nor does it specify that the nation is or should be religious. It is a phrase interpreted by most as an understanding of our cultural and historical roots based on a common belief (at that time) that we have certain unalienable rights that are God given. These rights are for everybody, not just those who believe in God. And because they are God-given, they cannot be overridden or taken away by laws instituted by mankind.

    The phrase is no more coercive in any way than the opening words of the Pledge, "I Pledge allegiance to the flag. . . " What does that mean to you? Does it mean the same thing to you as it meant to the one(s) who wrote it? Does it mean the same thing to you as it means to me? Is there anything in the Pledge that specifies that?

    What does "God" as referenced in the Pledge mean to you? What does it order you to do? Does it mean the same thing to you as it does to the one(s) who included it? Does it mean the same thing as it meant to the founders of the country and authors of the Constitution?

    Without specificity or requirement, there is simply no Constitutional problem with either phrase.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    There is no law, Constitutional or otherwise, that says the nation cannot be religious. The law only specifies that Congress cannot specify what religion the country should or must be. The 'under God' phrase neither establishes a specific religion nor does it specify that the nation is or should be religious. It is a phrase interpreted by most as an understanding of our cultural and historical roots based on a common belief (at that time) that we have certain unalienable rights that are God given. These rights are for everybody, not just those who believe in God. And because they are God-given, they cannot be overridden or taken away by laws instituted by mankind.

    The phrase is no more coercive in any way than the opening words of the Pledge, "I Pledge allegiance to the flag. . . " What does that mean to you? Does it mean the same thing to you as it meant to the one(s) who wrote it? Does it mean the same thing to you as it means to me? Is there anything in the Pledge that specifies that?

    What does "God" as referenced in the Pledge mean to you? What does it order you to do? Does it mean the same thing to you as it does to the one(s) who included it? Does it mean the same thing as it meant to the founders of the country and authors of the Constitution?

    Without specificity or requirement, there is simply no Constitutional problem with either phrase.
    The Constitution does state that the government cannot be religious. Reread the Establishment Clause, you obviously do not have an understanding of it, if you are even aware of it at all. You are trying use it to your liking when the actual meaning of it is very clear and not consistent with your ideas. You can twist and turn the meanings of this clause as you wish, but the truth remains the same.
    "Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." -Ronald Reagan

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    Re: There's TWO Reasons The Pledging Should Cease

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    The only way that government would be guilty of an establishment of religion is if any particular religion was favored (rewarded) over any other, if any particular religion was forbidden or afforded disadvantage for its beliefs.
    So it's OK for government to favor religion, which would be a reward in itself?

    There is nothing implied nor stated in the Constitution suggesting that religion would not be permitted within public view, on public lands, or even in government activity.
    Public view, sure. Any land except for government-related. Boy, are you off on the last one. Guess that's why religion was kept out of what we base our laws on (the Constitution). To what level is it OK in government activity? I say none and let's keep our government impartial. Some conservative Christians are simply not going to stop at the pledge/10 commandments/etc. Like a certain senator who, during the rash of government endorsement of religion in the 50s, introduced a constitutional amendment that stated "This nation devoutly recognizes the authority and law of Jesus Christ, Saviour and Ruler of nations,through whom are bestowed the blessings of Almighty God." We can clearly see that if you give 'em an inch, they'll take a mile. You'd say I should wait for something like that to pass and then take action against it, but then the Constitution would have already been null and void. Is the severity of this getting through to you? Can you see why separation of church and state is so important? You still haven't bothered to show how optional school led prayer was found unconstitutional, but the pledge is OK. If government endorsment was found unconstitutional in the prayer issue, then why isn't it applicable to the official pledge? Not only that, but the point of the pledge was to unify and since that is its aim the pre-"under God" phrase version already accomplished that. Therefore, "under God" is rendered unnecessary.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by alex
    The Constitution does state that the government cannot be religious. Reread the Establishment Clause, you obviously do not have an understanding of it, if you are even aware of it at all. You are trying use it to your liking when the actual meaning of it is very clear and not consistent with your ideas. You can twist and turn the meanings of this clause as you wish, but the truth remains the same.
    Not only that, but school led prayer was found unconstitutional despite being neither specific nor officialy required.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    Not only that, but school led prayer was found unconstitutional despite being neither specific nor officialy required.
    That and the fact that the pledge as well has been found to be unconstitutional as well. But, so far, AlbqOwl hasn't responded to the points made in the Ninth Circuit Judge's opinion that I so generously supplied for this thread and his/her rebuttal.

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