View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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    133 56.36%
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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #371
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    also, lets think about it. what exactly does the pledge say?

    I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

    All it impllies is that God is watching over the country. it was implemented by Lincoln during the Civil War, the one nation under God part. as it was put onto our money. It was a dark period in the north, and they were on the verge of loosing. it was to bring the country together as it lwas ment to do here as well. If athiests were really against it, then they would stop using US currency as it is on there too.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by t125eagle
    also, lets think about it. what exactly does the pledge say?

    I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

    All it impllies is that God is watching over the country. it was implemented by Lincoln during the Civil War, the one nation under God part. as it was put onto our money. It was a dark period in the north, and they were on the verge of loosing. it was to bring the country together as it lwas ment to do here as well. If athiests were really against it, then they would stop using US currency as it is on there too.
    It is as absurd for the anti-religious types to attempt to deny our historical and cultural heritage that is reflected in the 'under God' phrase in the Pledge, as it would be for religious types to say that this phrase is any kind of religious imperative. As is apparent in the Federalist papers, other supporting documents, and the Declaration of Independence, the founding fathers believed that it is God, by whatever name, and not man, that gives humankind certain inalienable rights, and thus man shall not be given authority to take those rights away.

    I simply cannot fathom how this threatens anybody or how anyone could be so anti-anything-religious to get their shorts in a wad over two little, non compulsory words in a non-compulsory Pledge that has zero affect on one's person, one's livelihood, or one's opportunities.

    The funny thing is that many who object so adamently to the Pledge are the same people who demand that everybody else be tolerant and accepting of any new or wierd notion of social engineering or anti-establishment practices that don't offend the anti-religious types. The majority is expected to be tolerant of minority preferences, but somehow the minority should be able to dictate acceptance of their preferences to the majority.

    I just find that kind of thinking a bit fuzzy and out of kilter in the grand scheme of things.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #373
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    It is as absurd for the anti-religious types to attempt to deny our historical and cultural heritage that is reflected in the 'under God' phrase in the Pledge, as it would be for religious types to say that this phrase is any kind of religious imperative. As is apparent in the Federalist papers, other supporting documents, and the Declaration of Independence, the founding fathers believed that it is God, by whatever name, and not man, that gives humankind certain inalienable rights, and thus man shall not be given authority to take those rights away.
    It would also be absurd to claim two things which you're alluding to. That the founding fathers had any agreement whatsoever on religion. We can cherrypick quotes from Jefferson and others to show they were secular or others to demonstrate they were deist or possibly even Christian. The one thing they did agree on though was that the government's stance on religion should not be taken. Why? Because there was enough acrimony with the religious sects of Christianity and the thought of the government taking preference of one over another would surely loosen the country's footing. So they did what any sensible people would do, they left it out. Any other claims are purely folly and revisionist's history.

    The pledge's addendum that was pushed by the Knight's of Columbus in 1953, a Catholic Fraternal group which Johnny Appleseeded the cities in America with the Judeo-Christian 10 Commandments, does not just dishonor the country's Constitution but also its forefathers' beliefs. To say that their position and movement to have the pledge include "under God" is completely secular or even not based on Christianity is a falsehood.

  4. #374
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by shuamort
    It would also be absurd to claim two things which you're alluding to. That the founding fathers had any agreement whatsoever on religion. We can cherrypick quotes from Jefferson and others to show they were secular or others to demonstrate they were deist or possibly even Christian. The one thing they did agree on though was that the government's stance on religion should not be taken. Why? Because there was enough acrimony with the religious sects of Christianity and the thought of the government taking preference of one over another would surely loosen the country's footing. So they did what any sensible people would do, they left it out. Any other claims are purely folly and revisionist's history.

    The pledge's addendum that was pushed by the Knight's of Columbus in 1953, a Catholic Fraternal group which Johnny Appleseeded the cities in America with the Judeo-Christian 10 Commandments, does not just dishonor the country's Constitution but also its forefathers' beliefs. To say that their position and movement to have the pledge include "under God" is completely secular or even not based on Christianity is a falsehood.
    The founders did not agree on all points of religion, nor was that ever their intent. They did agree on the concept of 'God-given' rights, however, Even the Diest Thomas Jefferson who composed the Declaration of Independence included that concept in its text. And they in no way concluded that inclusion of that concept in the Declaration (or anywhere else) was a merging of government and religion--it certainly was not an establishment of religion. It was an affirmation that this is the sense of the majority.

    It is still a sense of the majority and that is all that the phrase 'under God' implies. Unless you can show where the rationale for inclusion of the phrase, its use, or its historical underpinnings are exclusively 'Christian', you are simply drawing assumptions of facts that do not exist.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    The founders did not agree on all points of religion, nor was that ever their intent. They did agree on the concept of 'God-given' rights, however, Even the Diest Thomas Jefferson who composed the Declaration of Independence included that concept in its text. And they in no way concluded that inclusion of that concept in the Declaration (or anywhere else) was a merging of government and religion--it certainly was not an establishment of religion. It was an affirmation that this is the sense of the majority.
    Wait, so the Declaration of Independence is a variable but Jefferson's letter to the baptists which declared a separation of church and state isn't?

    Or the Treaty of Tripoly where it states that the country is NOT a christian country?
    As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen and as the said States have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

    You're cherry picking once again.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    It is still a sense of the majority and that is all that the phrase 'under God' implies. Unless you can show where the rationale for inclusion of the phrase, its use, or its historical underpinnings are exclusively 'Christian', you are simply drawing assumptions of facts that do not exist.
    You mean, a Catholic organization that planted Ten Commandments around the country had no religious intentions by unconstitutionally inserting "under God" into the pledge. You can stick your fingers in your ears as deep as they go and the facts are still going to remain.

  6. #376
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by t125eagle
    also, lets think about it. what exactly does the pledge say?

    I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

    All it impllies is that God is watching over the country. it was implemented by Lincoln during the Civil War, the one nation under God part.
    Nope, it was implemented in the mid-50's to contrast US with the "Godless commies." Can you at least get that part right
    as it was put onto our money. It was a dark period in the north, and they were on the verge of loosing. it was to bring the country together as it lwas ment to do here as well. If athiests were really against it, then they would stop using US currency as it is on there too.
    Rest assured that once the Pledge of Allegiance is cleaned up according to the 1st Amendment, so will the currency.

  7. #377
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    The founders did not agree on all points of religion, nor was that ever their intent. They did agree on the concept of 'God-given' rights, however, Even the Diest Thomas Jefferson who composed the Declaration of Independence included that concept in its text. And they in no way concluded that inclusion of that concept in the Declaration (or anywhere else) was a merging of government and religion--it certainly was not an establishment of religion. It was an affirmation that this is the sense of the majority.
    A majority position that was cleaned up when it was time to implement the US Constitution, whihc was to be for ALL Americans. hence, the 1st Amendment Establishment Clause.
    It is still a sense of the majority and that is all that the phrase 'under God' implies. Unless you can show where the rationale for inclusion of the phrase, its use, or its historical underpinnings are exclusively 'Christian', you are simply drawing assumptions of facts that do not exist.
    It was pushed by a decidedly Christian organization specifically as a Cold War Gimmic to contrast the holy Christian spirit of America with the Godlessness of communism. It very much was a religious, political ploy.

  8. #378
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    It is as absurd for the anti-religious types to attempt to deny our historical and cultural heritage that is reflected in the 'under God' phrase in the Pledge, as it would be for religious types to say that this phrase is any kind of religious imperative.
    Ahh......this part of this post is pure BS. I am not "anti-religious" and it is the sign of someone prejudiced against anyone who disagrees with their point of view to suggest otherwise. I am against religion in our government, not anti-religious and I am very offended when anyone accuses me of being against religion. It is a bull**** accusation meant to incite trouble, and it is wrong. For example, if I were to say that you are "anti-athiests" because of your stand on this subject it would be equally wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    As is apparent in the Federalist papers, other supporting documents, and the Declaration of Independence, the founding fathers believed that it is God, by whatever name, and not man, that gives humankind certain inalienable rights, and thus man shall not be given authority to take those rights away.
    None of this has anything to do with the law and the Constitution and you certainly must know that, right? For every "founding father" you claim wrote about being pro-religion in government there's another one, including Jefferson, who wrote against it.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    I simply cannot fathom how this threatens anybody or how anyone could be so anti-anything-religious to get their shorts in a wad over two little, non compulsory words in a non-compulsory Pledge that has zero affect on one's person, one's livelihood, or one's opportunities.
    If it's supposed to be so minor why are you up in arms over this issue? You wrote again "anti-anything-religious" to stir trouble just like you did earlier in this post. Are you not smart enough to comprehend that being against the inclusion of any God in government does not make one anti-religious?

    Since it is so meaningless then why not drop it? Huh? Put your money where your keyboard is, so to speak.

    What's so interesting and IMHO hypocritical is that the poster cites the Federalist Papers and Declaration of Independence as old documents that supposedely justify God's presence in government YET ignores the fact that the Pledge did not include any reference about God until 1954.

    If you're writing that you believe in the old traditions established so long ago how come that does not apply to the Pledge in it's original form before the bogus fear of Communism made Congress pass a law that is unconstitutional?

    Hypocrisy IMHO.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    The funny thing is that many who object so adamently to the Pledge are the same people who demand that everybody else be tolerant and accepting of any new or wierd notion of social engineering or anti-establishment practices that don't offend the anti-religious types. The majority is expected to be tolerant of minority preferences, but somehow the minority should be able to dictate acceptance of their preferences to the majority.

    I just find that kind of thinking a bit fuzzy and out of kilter in the grand scheme of things.
    I have no clue as to what you just wrote? Please elaborate and share with all of us what you mean about "weird notion of social engineering" that you tossed out? For that matter, define "anti-establishment"? What do you mean? I can speculate but I way prefer to read your reasoning without my assumptions.

  9. #379
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    And please explain to me how we are doing that? I will tell you the same thing I told the athiest who didnt want the cross on Mt. Soledad. "Just dont look at it." And you'll never know its there. Simple easy answer to all the problems. So in your case just dont say that phrase. Simple as that. Let me know if you get thrown in jail for not including that phrase. I will be the first to post your bail.
    Again please read this post one more time. Maybe you didnt get it the forst time. This should be the end of this argument.

  10. #380
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    Again please read this post one more time. Maybe you didnt get it the forst time. This should be the end of this argument.
    Again, see post #39 in this thread.
    "Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." -Ronald Reagan

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