View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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    133 56.36%
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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #311
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    HEY TRY REFUTING THIS FACT.
    Let me just say this to everyone who thinks this pledge is unconstitutional.

    Are you made to say this pledge at all in your life? If you dont say this pledge is your arms twisted, do people throw in jail, do people burn you at the steak, is your family targeted, are you boycotted? I think its suffice to say this argument is done.

    I dont think that saying the pledge even if your made to and substitute that phrase with whatever you want would be so wrong. Get over this argument. Its simply rediculous.

    However, let me know when you get thrown in jail for not saying "under god". I will be the first to say your innocent.
    cheers
    I've already rebutted that fact. Go back and re-read the points I've made. The recitatition has never been the point. The point is that it was unconstitutional when the law was written in 1954 even if no one ever recited the pledge since then.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Sorry Steen. I skipped nothing, but your argument is simply illogical based on the facts that you have thus far ignored and the unverifiable and unsubstantiated points you have presented as facts. Saying that something is unconstitutional does not make it so unless there is a credible basis, and you have not shown one.
    How about a Federal Court ruling that has said that it's "Unconstitutional". Pretty credible basis there.

  3. #313
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by shuamort
    How about a Federal Court ruling that has said that it's "Unconstitutional". Pretty credible basis there.
    In this last case it was a District Court restricted to its own jurisdiction. Its jurisdiction does not extend to anybody else's jurisdiction. The ruling will almost certainly be kicked up to higher courts and eventually the Supreme Court who hopefully will decide the issue once and for all. The phrase is not unconsitutional. It infringes on nobody's rights. It is not an establishment of religion. To refuse the phrase does in fact prohibit the constitutionally guaranteed right to the free exercise of religion.

    Let's look at this business of rights.

    To infringe on your rights:

    1) It would have to be mandatory for citizens to say the phrase 'under God'. It isn't.

    2) The phrase 'under God' would have to favor a particular understanding or interpretation of a specific diety. It doesn't.

    3) The phrase 'under God' would have to be coercive or manipulative in nature offering reward or benefit for saying it or punishment or loss of benefit by refusal to say it. Neither condition exists.

    4) The phrase would have to impact on your property, or

    5) The phrase would have to impact on your ability to earn a living, or

    6) The phrase would have to prevent your pursuit of happiness, or

    7) The phrase would have to put you or yours in physical danger, or

    8) The phrase would have to restrict a constitutional freedom that you possess.

    Unless you can show reasonably and conclusively that any of these conditions exist as a result of the phrase 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance, it is not unconstitutional for the phrase to be there.
    Last edited by AlbqOwl; 09-20-05 at 12:35 PM.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  4. #314
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    In this last case it was a District Court restricted to its own jurisdiction. Its jurisdiction does not extend to anybody else's jurisdiction.
    Currently, since the ruling is under appeal it only affects said district court's jurisdiction. Should SCOTUS decide not to hear the case, it will be in effect for the entire country. Thusly into the whole US' jurisdiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    The ruling will almost certainly be kicked up to higher courts and eventually the Supreme Court who hopefully will decide the issue once and for all. .
    It's already been decided by the federal courts. So far, I've only seen the christians complaining that the two words be taken out and they're the ones pushing it to the SCOTUS. I wonder why that is.... hmm....

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    The phrase is not unconsitutional.
    And you speak with what authority? Since U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton has deemed it to be unconstitutional and he has the rights and abilities to put that pronouncement on laws, it IS unconstitutional. Should SCOTUS overturn it, that would change its status. But since they

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    It infringes on nobody's rights. It is not an establishment of religion. To refuse the phrase does in fact prohibit the constitutionally guaranteed right to the free exercise of religion.

    Let's look at this business of rights.

    To infringe on your rights:

    1) It would have to be mandatory for citizens to say the phrase 'under God'. It isn't.

    2) The phrase 'under God' would have to favor a particular understanding or interpretation of a specific diety. It doesn't.

    3) The phrase 'under God' would have to be coercive or manipulative in nature offering reward or benefit for saying it or punishment or loss of benefit by refusal to say it. Neither condition exists.

    4) The phrase would have to impact on your property, or

    5) The phrase would have to impact on your ability to earn a living, or

    6) The phrase would have to prevent your pursuit of happiness, or

    7) The phrase would have to put you or yours in physical danger, or

    8) The phrase would have to restrict a constitutional freedom that you possess.

    Unless you can show reasonably and conclusively that any of these conditions exist as a result of the phrase 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance, it is not unconstitutional for the phrase to be there.
    Luckily, I don't have to. U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton has already ruled as such. It's up to you to prove him wrong. Here's his 31 page opinion. (.pdf file). Go to town.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    You'll have to show me the statute that says an unchallenged Federal judge's ruling is binding on the entire country before I'll accept that as your authority to say.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    You'll have to show me the statute that says an unchallenged Federal judge's ruling is binding on the entire country before I'll accept that as your authority to say.
    American law relies on the idea of stare decisis, which basically means that what the court has once decided, it won't re-examine.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by shuamort
    I've already rebutted that fact. Go back and re-read the points I've made. The recitatition has never been the point. The point is that it was unconstitutional when the law was written in 1954 even if no one ever recited the pledge since then.
    Omg you are gravely mistaken. You are highly misinterpreting the constitution. IN no way shape or form does it prohibit that phrase in a pledge that isnt made to be recited. Y ou need to learn that fact. Now if we were made to recite it through gov then you aare correct but until then you will proceed to be wrong. Simple as that.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    Omg you are gravely mistaken.
    "Omg"? Now that's funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
    You are highly misinterpreting the constitution. IN no way shape or form does it prohibit that phrase in a pledge that isnt made to be recited. Y ou need to learn that fact. Now if we were made to recite it through gov then you aare correct but until then you will proceed to be wrong. Simple as that.
    I've re-read your sentences over and over and over again. They still make no sense. Can you please re-write them more clearly?

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    "Omg"? Now that's funny.
    I thought it was funny too.

    I've re-read your sentences over and over and over again. They still make no sense. Can you please re-write them more clearly?
    Well in that case it sounds like you need phonics. "It works for me."

    When you can read english let me know so we can start having a debate.

  10. #320
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by shuamort
    American law relies on the idea of stare decisis, which basically means that what the court has once decided, it won't re-examine.
    What the court has decided, that SAME COURT won't re-examine. That certainly does not mean another court won't hear an identical case and it absolutely does not mean that what a District Judge in California decides is binding on a court in New Mexico. There are principles of precedence, and many judges use those as a deciding factor, but in no point of law is a precedence binding.

    There is no law of the land that forbids the use of "under God" as it is used in the pledge, it violates nobody's rights to privacy, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, their livelihood, or conjugal privileges. The phrase is harmless, historical, traditional, cultural, and constitutional.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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