View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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    133 56.36%
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    103 43.64%
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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #301
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by alex
    I cannot believe I just read this. It doesn't interfer with an Atheist's liberties?



    "Congress shall pass no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    "...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

    Show where in The Constitution it says the government can endorse religion.
    Show me how the phrase 'under God' endorses religion. What religion does it endorse? What God does it refer to? Whose God is it?

    And show me the Constitutional clause that says government cannot mention, acknowledge, or include religion. Show me the article that says no evidence of any religious belief may be part of anything having to do with government.

    Show me how the athiest is required or coerced in any way into reciting the phrase s/he doesn't believe. Show me the reward or punishment for anyone who does or does not recite the Pledge as it is currently written.

    Nobody's rights are affected at all. It is a matter of community preference. When the community no longer wants it, it will cease to exist. Until then, I suggest the athiests accept their minority status gracefully and stop trying to force others into behaving in an equally godless manner. Coercion and shame go both ways. It is just as offensive for an athiest to attempt to force his preferences and lifestyle on a person of faith as it is for a person of faith to attempt to force his preferences and liestyle onto an athiest.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #302
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Show me how the phrase 'under God' endorses religion. What religion does it endorse? What God does it refer to? Whose God is it?

    And show me the Constitutional clause that says government cannot mention, acknowledge, or include religion. Show me the article that says no evidence of any religious belief may be part of anything having to do with government.

    Show me how the athiest is required or coerced in any way into reciting the phrase s/he doesn't believe. Show me the reward or punishment for anyone who does or does not recite the Pledge as it is currently written.

    Nobody's rights are affected at all. It is a matter of community preference. When the community no longer wants it, it will cease to exist. Until then, I suggest the athiests accept their minority status gracefully and stop trying to force others into behaving in an equally godless manner. Coercion and shame go both ways. It is just as offensive for an athiest to attempt to force his preferences and lifestyle on a person of faith as it is for a person of faith to attempt to force his preferences and liestyle onto an athiest.
    It's like all of the arguments I've offered so far are being ignored. Go back and read my posts and try and refute those facts.

    Cheers.

  3. #303
    Educator Columbusite's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    However much you resent any deference to a diety, the fact remains that the United States was founded with a diety in mind. This would suggest that both historically and culturally, the phrase 'under God' is appropriate in the Pledge. To wit:

    America's founders did not intend for there to be a separation of God and
    state, as shown by the fact that all 50 states acknowledge God in their
    state constitutions:

    Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the
    favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following
    Constitution ..

    Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to
    those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land ..

    Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to
    Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

    Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful
    to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

    California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California,
    grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .

    Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe .

    Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with
    gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...

    Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature,
    the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the
    dictates of their consciences .

    Florida 1845, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to
    Almighty God for our constitutional liberty ... establish this
    Constitution...

    Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection
    and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

    Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine
    Guidance . establish this Constitution

    Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to
    Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings ..

    Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful
    to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath
    so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our
    endeavors

    Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to
    Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of
    government

    Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the
    Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence
    on Him for a continuation of these blessings ... establish this Constitution

    Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God
    for our civil and religious privileges . establish this Constitution.

    Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of grateful to
    Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

    Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful
    to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy ..

    Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine .. acknowledging with grateful
    hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us
    an opportunity ... and imploring His aid and direction

    Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful
    to Almighty God or our civil and religious liberty...

    Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts,
    acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of
    the Universe...in the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly
    imploring His direction ...

    Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful
    to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom ... establish this Constitution

    Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota,
    grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to
    perpetuate its blessings

    Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention
    assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

    Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence
    for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness ..
    establish this Constitution ..

    Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution ..

    Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our
    freedom .. establish this Constitution

    Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to
    Almighty God for our freedom . establish this Constitution ..

    New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural
    and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own
    conscience .

    New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey,
    grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so
    long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our
    endeavors
    .

    New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to
    Almighty God for the blessings of liberty ..

    New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful
    to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings .

    North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina,
    grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil,
    political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon
    Him for the continuance of those

    North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to
    Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

    Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to
    Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our
    common

    Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to
    secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty ... establish this

    Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure
    in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of
    their consciences .

    Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to
    Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly
    invoking His guidance

    Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island
    grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath
    so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing

    South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of the State of South
    Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this
    Constitution

    South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to
    Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties . establish this

    Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible
    right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their
    conscience...

    Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging,
    with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God

    Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we
    establish this Constitution .

    Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to ... enable the
    individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other
    blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man ...

    Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe
    our Creator . can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the mutual
    duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each
    other...

    Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington,
    grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain
    this Constitution .

    West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the
    blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West
    Virginia .. reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God .

    Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty
    God for our freedom, domestic tranquility

    Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties ... establish this
    Constitution .

    After reviewing acknowledgments of God from all 50 state constitutions, one
    is faced with the prospect that maybe, just maybe, the ACLU and the
    out-of-control federal courts are wrong!

    And finally, reflecting the sentiment of the founder of our Constitution: "Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants."--William Penn

    All moot. Read my reply to Not a Democrat.

  4. #304
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    It's like all of the arguments I've offered so far are being ignored. Go back and read my posts and try and refute those facts.

    Cheers.
    HEY TRY REFUTING THIS FACT.

    cheers


    Let me just say this to everyone who thinks this pledge is unconstitutional.

    Are you made to say this pledge at all in your life? If you dont say this pledge is your arms twisted, do people throw in jail, do people burn you at the steak, is your family targeted, are you boycotted? I think its suffice to say this argument is done.

    I dont think that saying the pledge even if your made to and substitute that phrase with whatever you want would be so wrong. Get over this argument. Its simply rediculous.

    However, let me know when you get thrown in jail for not saying "under god". I will be the first to say your innocent.

  5. #305
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Yes, and since the national pledge is for ALL of us, it should not be the prerogative of a small minority to dictate what the content of it should be for everybody.
    So even if it violates the US Constitution, it should be pushed through because the majority wants it?

    yes, you have clearly shows how much you hate the US Constitution protection of the minority's civil rights. Your claim is one of the most un-American claims yet in this tread.
    The principle at play here is that when nobody's rights are being violated and no Constitutional principle is in play, the preference of the community should prevail. In this particular case the entire nation is the 'community'. And the only reasonable way for the community to prevail is for the majority to decide it.
    As long as it doesn't violate the US Constitution. But OOOPS, it does. So there goes your majority wish.

    Not that you care. Christian fundies always push to have the establishment clause overriden so they can inflict their faith and unique punitive moralistic theocracy on everybody else. But you can stuff your biblical dictatorship. You want a civil war? The go right on ahead and try to establish your theocratic fundamentalist state. The blueprint already exists in Iran, but you will find Americans better able to protect their civil rights from such fundamentalism that the Iranian population was. Whatever version of Khromeni that you will find to try to lead your theocratic coup-d'etas won't survive the dictatorship.

    You see, here in America we love the US Constitution and the freedoms it guarantees us. And fundie theocrats like you won't get the chance to come in and impose your punitive dictatorship on us.
    Christians are certainly not the only Americans who believe in a diety. But 90 percent of Americans do believe in a diety.
    Irrelevant. REAL Americans believe in the US Constitution, including the Establishment Clause.

    Until that time, as nobody's rights are being violated, a majority of Americans prefer the phrase and should prevail in that preference.
    You are lying as all atheists, agnostics, buddists etc are having their rights violated.

    But we are not surprised. Fundie theocrat conservatives always seem to bear more false witness than nearly everybody else.
    And you don't have a clue what my religious beliefs are in this matter.
    But we do know that you don't give a **** about the US Constitution, instead believing that the majority has the right to impose a religious tyranny on the minority.

  6. #306
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Show me how the phrase 'under God' endorses religion. What religion does it endorse? What God does it refer to? Whose God is it?

    And show me the Constitutional clause that says government cannot mention, acknowledge, or include religion. Show me the article that says no evidence of any religious belief may be part of anything having to do with government.
    That was shown earlier. Why did you skip it?
    Show me how the athiest is required or coerced in any way into reciting the phrase s/he doesn't believe. Show me the reward or punishment for anyone who does or does not recite the Pledge as it is currently written.
    That was shown earlier. Why did you skip it?
    Nobody's rights are affected at all. It is a matter of community preference. When the community no longer wants it, it will cease to exist. Until then, I suggest the athiests accept their minority status gracefully and stop trying to force others into behaving in an equally godless manner. Coercion and shame go both ways. It is just as offensive for an athiest to attempt to force his preferences and lifestyle on a person of faith as it is for a person of faith to attempt to force his preferences and liestyle onto an athiest.
    And thus we witness your disregard for the US Constitution.

  7. #307
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Sorry Steen. I skipped nothing, but your argument is simply illogical based on the facts that you have thus far ignored and the unverifiable and unsubstantiated points you have presented as facts. Saying that something is unconstitutional does not make it so unless there is a credible basis, and you have not shown one. Saying that your rights as an athiest (or whatever) are being violated does not make it so when you have not been able to show how any inalienable or legal right of any athiest has been violated. Further you have not shown how your not getting your preference in this matter is more unconstitutional than people of faith not getting their preference in this matter.

    And again the argument has become to circular to be productive, and again I will wait until somebody provides a fresh perspective.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  8. #308
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    I think it's quite clear how all this is going to be played out anyway. It will go before the US Supreme Court (once again) and they will finally nail the coffin shut on this nonsense - as should have been done last time.
    http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/2940/wrathsig3li.jpg
    "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

    - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto December 7, 1941

  9. #309
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    If the President is true to his promise to appoint strict constitutional constructionists to the high court, I think you are right, Wrath. One can only hope.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  10. #310
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    What garbage!

    The right wants to protect the flag from burners and the liberal left wish for flag burning to be protected under the "freedom of speech" as the right is accused of political tactics.

    *Reverse positions*.....

    The liberal left wants to protect peoples rights to personal religion, while the right wish to keep 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance under the "freedom of speech" as the left is accused of political tactics.

    The hypicrocy is sickening. I have a possible solution. SINCE our politicians are so egotistical that they can rehash the "intent of our Fore Fathers" or that they are so perverted that they like to re-interpret the "intent of our Fore Fathers" when the re-interpretation serves them,

    Let's look at the two subjects and put this to bed.

    1) Was American flag burners an issue back in 1776?.....no.

    2) Was "under God" in the Pledge back in 1892?.....no.

    This political partisan crap is such jack-assery.

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