View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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    133 56.36%
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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #271
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    Conservative qualities of projection and anti-Constitutionalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Not a Democrat
    You obviously don't care about what the law says.
    Really? I actually quote the law and deal with what the law says. Your claim that your wishful thinking trumps the law is much more an indication of rejection of the law.

    That you then accuse me of that has a name. In the mental health field, it is called "projection," this accusing others of what you yourself are doing.

    But hey, continue your shining example of the general quality of Conservatives. I like the image you project of Conservatives

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Boy, what a laughable attempt this is. Not a Democrat, watch as I tear this to shreds with reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not a Democrat
    Proof

    A careful look into the past reveals landmarks which were essential in guiding America along the pathway that led us to where we are today. More often than not, at each one of these landmarks, there also appears irrefutable evidence that a sense of divine destiny accompanied the most important events of our history.

    Here in part are some of these landmarks:

    1490-1492 - Columbus' commission was given to set out to find a new world.

    According to Columbus' personal log, his purpose in seeking undiscovered worlds was to "bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens. .... It was the Lord who put into my mind ... that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies ... I am the most unworthy sinner, but I have cried out to the Lord for grace and mercy, and they have covered me completely ... No one should fear to undertake any task in the name of our Saviour, if it is just and if the intention is purely for His holy service." (Columbus' Book of Prophecies)

    April 10, 1606 - The Charter for the Virginia Colony read in part:

    "To the glory of His divine Majesty, in propagating of the Christian religion to such people as yet live in ignorance of the true knowledge and worship of God."

    November 3, 1620 - King James I grants the Charter of the Plymouth council.

    "In the hope thereby to advance the enlargement of the Christian religion, to the glory of God Almighty."

    November 11, 1620 - The Pilgrims sign the Mayflower Compact aboard the Mayflower, in Plymouth harbor.

    "For the glory of God and advancement of ye Christian faith ... doe by these presents solemnly & mutually in ye presence of God and one of another, covenant & combine our selves togeather into a civill body politick."

    March 4, 1629 - The first Charter of Massachusetts read in part:

    "For the directing, ruling, and disposeing of all other Matters and Thinges, whereby our said People may be soe religiously, peaceablie, and civilly governed, as their good life and orderlie Conversacon, maie wynn and incite the Natives of the Country to the Knowledg and Obedience of the onlie true God and Savior of Mankinde, and the Christian Fayth, which in our Royall Intencon, and The Adventurers free profession, is the principall Ende of the Plantacion.."

    January 14, 1638 - The towns of Hartford, Weathersfield and Windsor adopt the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut.

    "To mayntayne and presearve the liberty and purity of the Gospell of our Lord Jesus, which we now professe..."

    August 4, 1639 - The governing body of New Hampshire is established.

    "Considering with ourselves the holy will of God and our own necessity, that we should not live without wholesome laws and civil government among us, of which we are altogether destitute, do, in the name of Christ and in the sight of God, combine ourselves together to erect and set up among us such government as shall be, to our best discerning, agreeable to the will of God..."

    April 3, 1644 - The New Haven Colony adopts their charter.

    "That the judicial laws of God, as they were delivered by Moses ... be a rule to all the courts in this jurisdiction ..."

    April 21, 1649 - The Maryland Toleration Act is passed.

    "Be it therefor ... enacted ... that no person or persons whatsoever within this province ... professing to believe in Jesus Christ shall ... henceforth be any ways troubled, molested (or disapproved of) ... in respect of his or her religion nor in the free exercise thereof ..."

    April 25, 1689 - The Great Law of Pennsylvania is passed.

    "Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government ... therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God ..."

    May 20, 1775 - North Carolina passes the Mecklenburg County Resolutions.

    "We hereby declare ourselves a free and independent people; are, and of a right ought to be, a sovereign and self-governing association, under control of no other power than that of our God and the general government of Congress."

    Summer 12, 1775 - Continental Congress issues a call to all citizens to fast and pray and confess their sin that the Lord might bless the land.

    "And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and to abstain from servile labor and recreation on said day."

    All of this up to here means absolutely nothing. This has nothing to do with the formation of our Constitution. Columbus and the Puritans did not and had no intention of forming the USA. Our Constitution was and is what this country is based on and I can find nothing in it which tells it's citizens to pray and confess their sins.

    Summer 2-4, 1776 - Declaration of Independence written and signed.

    "We hold these truths ... that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights ... appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world ... And for the support of this Declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence..."
    The Creator/Nature's God/Divine Providence Is much too generic to be considered the Christian God and the adjective "Nature's" aptly describes the Deist God.

    September 17, 1787 - The Constitution of the United States is finished.

    At least 50 out of the 55 men who framed the Constitution of the United States were professing Christians. (M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company, Plymouth Rock Foundation., 1982).

    Eleven of the first 13 States required faith in Jesus Christ and the Bible as qualification for holding public office.

    The Constitution of each of the 50 States acknowledges and calls upon the Providence of God for the blessings of freedom.

    1787 - James Madison, the "architect" of the federal Constitution and fourth president:

    "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future .. upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God."

    That many framers were Christians has no bearing on the fact that God, Christianity, and the Bible, were kept out of the Constitution. They were smart enough not to make the same mistake of the colonies and Europe and include them into the Constitution since they had seen the results over and over. So 11 out of 13 states blatantly violated the part which says there is no religious test for public office. Some states also go against the Constitution (though I believe in most cases acknowledgement of God or Divine Providence is in the preamble which has no legal weight whatsoever). Your point is...? That Madison quote was totally made up by David Barton of Wallbuilders to prove this is a Christian nation. Apparently, this is so obviously true he had to resort to lying and so you might want to check your sources before giving false information. Oops.
    http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston2.htm
    Here's a quote by James Madison, "During almost fifteen centuries the legal establishment of Christianity has been upon trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."
    Washington was hardly the church-going, pious Christian you wish he was. He never took communion, didn't regularly go to church (stopped going after retirement), didn't kneel when praying and didn't celebrate the Lord's Supper. His adopted daughter said, "He was not one of those who act or pray 'that they may be seen of men.' He communed with his God in secret." Of course, there are a good number of the Founding Fathers who, if we were to quote them, would give us a mixed sense on what their religious views were. Having a quote war is, in the end, pointless. These men came to a compromise;our Constitution. If we want to know if this is a Christian nation we need look no further. When we do look at it we see no mention of religion except for two brief sections; one, in 1st amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereo" and another which forbids religious tests for public office. The silence of Christianity in that document is deafening and deliberate. If it was their intention to form a Christian government, they couldn't have done a worse job. From a secular Constitution we have a secular government which has allowed religion and non-religion to flourish freely. Why anyone would want a Christian government is something I just can't comprehend. (please note I had to trim some quotes from the last reply to fit this post, look at the original to see more)

  3. #273
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Sorry if anyone made these points before….I’m lazy and I've only briefly skimmed the previous 28 pages…..

    Now, I don’t care what you believe in, because the first amendment entitles you to whatever superstitions float your boat, same as it does for me. Since there are a number of people who do not believe in God, doesn’t this mean there are portions of our country that are not “under God?”

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the pledge of allegiance the official way we say that we are loyal to our country? What does God have to do with being loyal to your country? I’ve met people completely suffused in religion that are unshakably loyal to the United States. I’ve also met people so adamantly atheist, I fully expect them to use their last breath to mock a priest trying to save their soul; these people are just as loyal to their country as anyone else. (and I have to caution you not to dare to question their national pride while they are nearby) It is quite obvious to me that faith has nothing to do with patriotism; which makes me question why there is a reference to God in a promise that exists for the sole purpose of affirming one’s patriotism.

    What does “under God” mean anyway? From my atheistic perspective, a country being “under God” signifies that all actions taken by that country are done with God’s approval.
    You can spout that tripe about how the vast majority of the population beliefs in God, and “under God” simply shows their faith in a higher being, but that still doesn’t address that fact that the pledge of allegiance exists for nothing but to claim loyalty to your nation, you know…to PLEDGE your ALLEGIANCE.

    While the actions of the United States of America are (theoretically) undertaken to advance the aggregate goals of its population (of which the vast majority believes in God), being an American citizen in no way obligates me as an individual to work towards upholding the dictates of this God. (aside from those that coincide with universally agreed upon principles) By including “under God” in the pledge of allegiance, you imply that being loyal to our country means being loyal to this being.


    Something I’ve been wondering…..if you throw “under God” into the pledge simply as a curtsey the religious beliefs of masses, wouldn’t “under Gods” be a much more accurate representation of their diverse opinions? When I hear the Christian majority claim “under God” ambiguously represents all the myriad beliefs out there, I can’t help myself….I just have to call bull****.
    Last edited by Befuddled_Stoner; 09-19-05 at 02:11 AM.

  4. #274
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    If you don't like the phrase "under God" just don't say it. BTW how many of you have said the okedge in the past five years? I haven't said it for decades and except for my grandchildren I don't know any one who has said it since grammar school.
    from life i have learned:
    My greatest teachers have been my own failures.
    Ignorance is often the mother of valor.

    from my military service:
    Once you have pulled the pin, Mr Grenade is not your friend.

  5. #275
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    However much you resent any deference to a diety, the fact remains that the United States was founded with a diety in mind. This would suggest that both historically and culturally, the phrase 'under God' is appropriate in the Pledge. To wit:

    America's founders did not intend for there to be a separation of God and
    state, as shown by the fact that all 50 states acknowledge God in their
    state constitutions:

    Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the
    favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following
    Constitution ..

    Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to
    those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land ..

    Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to
    Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

    Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful
    to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

    California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California,
    grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .

    Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe .

    Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with
    gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...

    Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature,
    the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the
    dictates of their consciences .

    Florida 1845, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to
    Almighty God for our constitutional liberty ... establish this
    Constitution...

    Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection
    and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

    Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine
    Guidance . establish this Constitution

    Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to
    Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings ..

    Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful
    to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath
    so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our
    endeavors

    Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to
    Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of
    government

    Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the
    Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence
    on Him for a continuation of these blessings ... establish this Constitution

    Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God
    for our civil and religious privileges . establish this Constitution.

    Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of grateful to
    Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

    Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful
    to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy ..

    Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine .. acknowledging with grateful
    hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us
    an opportunity ... and imploring His aid and direction

    Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful
    to Almighty God or our civil and religious liberty...

    Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts,
    acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of
    the Universe...in the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly
    imploring His direction ...

    Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful
    to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom ... establish this Constitution

    Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota,
    grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to
    perpetuate its blessings

    Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention
    assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

    Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence
    for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness ..
    establish this Constitution ..

    Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution ..

    Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our
    freedom .. establish this Constitution

    Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to
    Almighty God for our freedom . establish this Constitution ..

    New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural
    and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own
    conscience .

    New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey,
    grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so
    long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our
    endeavors
    .

    New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to
    Almighty God for the blessings of liberty ..

    New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful
    to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings .

    North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina,
    grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil,
    political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon
    Him for the continuance of those

    North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to
    Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

    Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to
    Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our
    common

    Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to
    secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty ... establish this

    Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure
    in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of
    their consciences .

    Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to
    Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly
    invoking His guidance

    Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island
    grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath
    so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing

    South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of the State of South
    Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this
    Constitution

    South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to
    Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties . establish this

    Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible
    right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their
    conscience...

    Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging,
    with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God

    Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we
    establish this Constitution .

    Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to ... enable the
    individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other
    blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man ...

    Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe
    our Creator . can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the mutual
    duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each
    other...

    Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington,
    grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain
    this Constitution .

    West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the
    blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West
    Virginia .. reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God .

    Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty
    God for our freedom, domestic tranquility

    Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties ... establish this
    Constitution .

    After reviewing acknowledgments of God from all 50 state constitutions, one
    is faced with the prospect that maybe, just maybe, the ACLU and the
    out-of-control federal courts are wrong!

    And finally, reflecting the sentiment of the founder of our Constitution: "Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants."--William Penn
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  6. #276
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Inuyasha
    If you don't like the phrase "under God" just don't say it.
    So if we don't like other laws and edicts issued by the government, we should ignore them too?

  7. #277
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Damn AlbqOwl that is a very good argument towards religion and state, I guess "they" are going to have to re-write a lot of constitutions.


    Quote Originally Posted by shuamort
    So if we don't like other laws and edicts issued by the government, we should ignore them too?
    What law tells you that you must say the pledge or face legal recourse?



    I say let it be, but if this is going to be an issue it should be argued that the original version did not contain the phrase.

  8. #278
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by shuamort
    So if we don't like other laws and edicts issued by the government, we should ignore them too?
    PLease show me where saying the pledge to the flag is a law. It is not even a law in the military. There fore your comment denys all logic and is simply meant to be divisive with little or no practical purpose. Laws that are on the books must be obeyed. If not you will be punished by the stae, either by imprisonment or by fine, NO ONE has ever been arrested and incarcerated or fined for not saying the pledge. Please don't pˇss on my leg and try to tell me it's raining.
    from life i have learned:
    My greatest teachers have been my own failures.
    Ignorance is often the mother of valor.

    from my military service:
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  9. #279
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by gdalton
    What law tells you that you must say the pledge or face legal recourse?
    Quote Originally Posted by Inuyasha
    PLease show me where saying the pledge to the flag is a law
    I'll kindly ask both of you where I said that. Or we could just skip to the fact that since I didn't say that saying the pledge was a requirement by law, then we could just ignore your strawmen.

    Moreover, it may not be in law at a federal or state level, but may be requirement of the public school districts. Should a school district, which is an adjunct companion of the government, require this proselytization into the belief of the supernatural, then they are in fact in violation of the constitution. The same would apply to a school district requiring the bowing to Mecca in the middle of the school day. These school districts do not require the students to participate, but they do require the teachers to lead that. Which, of course, could interfere with the teacher's personal beliefs as well as forcing them into this indoctrination. "Under God" is a de facto declaration that all other religious paradigms (atheism, polytheism, pantheism, animism, ancestor worship, non-theistic spirutualities like Buddhism, etc.) are false.


    Of course, following your lines of logic, there have been attempts to get that made law in my home state:
    Minnesota governor vetoes Pledge of Allegiance requirement
    Saying patriotism should come from the heart, Gov. Jesse Ventura yesterday vetoed a bill that would have required public school students to say the Pledge of Allegiance at least once a week.

    Ventura had hinted he would veto the bill, saying on several occasions he had seen no problem with patriotism in the United States, particularly after Sept. 11. And he compared a pledge requirement to the indoctrination practiced by the Nazis and the Taliban.

    "I am vetoing this bill because I believe patriotism comes from the heart,” Ventura said in his veto message. “Patriotism is voluntary. It is a feeling of loyalty and allegiance that is the result of knowledge and belief. A patriot shows their patriotism through their actions, by their choice."

    Half the states now require the pledge as part of the school day, and half a dozen more recommend it, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by shuamort
    So if we don't like other laws and edicts issued by the government, we should ignore them too?
    These are your words. "Other laws" is the operative phrase here and indicates that you consider the reciting of the pledge a law or a legal obligation. if you don't understand what you have said, i cant make it any clearer. The proof is that TWO plople answered you wuth the same thought and I don't even know the other guy nor he me.
    from life i have learned:
    My greatest teachers have been my own failures.
    Ignorance is often the mother of valor.

    from my military service:
    Once you have pulled the pin, Mr Grenade is not your friend.

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