View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #221
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by cnredd
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    I agree! I agree! I agree!

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    This shouldn't have gone to court and we shouldn't be arguing over it. Its very simple. You are not forced to say under God when you say the pledge. You are not even forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance. But when you say it, you can choose to say under god or not. If you want to then do it. If you don't want to, then don't say it.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    No, I don't think the Constitution either says nor implies that there is total separation. What is says is that government shall not set up its own religion, it shall not require religion, and it shall not interfere with religion. There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution that bans religion in government or anywhere else, however. Such a notion is strictly an invention of modern judges.
    Modern judges?
    Quote Originally Posted by Brooke Allen
    The Founding Fathers were not religious men, and they fought hard to erect, in Thomas Jefferson's words, "a wall of separation between church and state." John Adams opined that if they were not restrained by legal measures, Puritans--the fundamentalists of their day--would "whip and crop, and pillory and roast." The historical epoch had afforded these men ample opportunity to observe the corruption to which established priesthoods were liable, as well as "the impious presumption of legislators and rulers," as Jefferson wrote, "civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time.”
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    No, the athiest loses nothing by the phrase 'under God' being in the prayer.
    Prayer? Why do you call it a prayer?
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  4. #224
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    I meant to type Pledge, not prayer. Mia culpa. (I have a roaring debate going on the power of prayer on another forum.) :smile:
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    The majority will should prevail when individual liberties are not at stake however, and the phrase 'under God' interferes with nobody's individual liberties.
    The public schools instructing children daily to say a pledge, a solemn promise, which insists that the republic is under God, and you don’t see this as an endorsement of theism, an inculcation? C’mon.
    Perhaps worst is teaching children that this republic is “under God”, and somehow guided divinely, and therefore can do no wrong. The Republic is man made, an artifact like the flag.
    Peace: the preemptive veteran’s benefit.
    Trade liberty for security and obtain neither of either.
    Whatever is begun in anger ends in shame.

  6. #226
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by marchare
    The public schools instructing children daily to say a pledge, a solemn promise, which insists that the republic is under God, and you don’t see this as an endorsement of theism, an inculcation? C’mon.
    Perhaps worst is teaching children that this republic is “under God”, and somehow guided divinely, and therefore can do no wrong. The Republic is man made, an artifact like the flag.
    The Pledge says a generic "under God" as symbolic of the nation's heritage, the Declaration of Independence, acknowledgement that the Preamble of EVERY state constitution (except I think Oregon or Washington) makes reference to God or a Creator, in respect for the 90+ percent of Americans who do believe in some form of higher power, and in recognition of the nation's culture. The Pledge does not state who God is, what God is, or how God is to be seen or understood, and there is no implication that God is to be worshipped.

    The phrase takes nothing away from you or anybody else, it has failed to corrupt or harm anybody in its 50+ years of existence, and it is important to a large majority of Americans. Get over it.
    Last edited by AlbqOwl; 09-17-05 at 06:42 PM.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  7. #227
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    The Pledge says a generic "under God" as symbolic of the nation's heritage, the Declaration of Independence, acknowledgement that the Preamble of EVERY state constitution (except I think Oregon or Washington) makes reference to God or a Creator, in respect for the 90+ percent of Americans who do believe in some form of higher power, and in recognition of the nation's culture.
    Irrelevant. It violates the establishment clause, it imposed a religious "fiat" on people who disgrees with it. It violates the US Constitution.
    The Pledge does not state who God is, what God is, or how God is to be seen or understood, and there is no implication that God is to be worshipped.
    it pushes the implication that there is a God. Again, this is prohibited per the US Constitution. Yes, you can try to Change the US Constitution and remove the establishment clause, having Pat Robertson or Carl Rove decide what religion you should follow if THAT is what you want

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Personally I think those legislators who want services of a chaplain should hire one out of pocket; or I can't imagine that there aren't plenty of clergy types all over Washington who wouldn't be thrilled to come to the chamber and give the opening prayer on a volunteer basis. Or they could take turns themselves. I agree that the chaplain, paid for with taxpayer money, is out of line.



    No, I don't think the Constitution either says nor implies that there is total separation. What is says is that government shall not set up its own religion, it shall not require religion, and it shall not interfere with religion. There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution that bans religion in government or anywhere else, however. Such a notion is strictly an invention of modern judges.
    We agree about the chaplains, but statement that there is nothing in the Constitution that bans religion in government is staggering. The Constitution says the government can't make a law respecting an establishment of religion, interfere with the people's right to practice religion, and cannot use a religious test for public office. Religion is both times mentioned in an exclusionary matter. Notice the words "respecting an establishment" so not just an establishment but anything leading up to one. No one is stopping anyone from adding that phrase if they choose, but like I said, the state is not to do that. We have separation of chuirch and state and I don't know how much clearer that could be. So I fail to see how this is unfair to anyone. Religious people can add "under God" and non-Christians and non-religious people, in order to recite the pledge do not have to put up with an unconstitutional state sponsored religious statement. The government cannot back religion, but that doesn't mean the people in it can't be religious. They just be religious with the state's backing. Just as it would be unconstitutional for the pledge to say "one nation, without God" for endorsing Atheism, so is it unconstitutional for it to say "one nation, under God". In a later post you mention the DoI and state constitution preambles to support your stance. This just shows your ignorance on the matter. The DoI is not what we base our laws on (that would be the Constitution) and you can throw as many preambles at me as you wish as they carry no legal weigth whatsoever. You're free to believe they do, but you'd be wrong.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by steen
    Irrelevant. It violates the establishment clause, it imposed a religious "fiat" on people who disgrees with it. It violates the US Constitution.
    it pushes the implication that there is a God. Again, this is prohibited per the US Constitution. Yes, you can try to Change the US Constitution and remove the establishment clause, having Pat Robertson or Carl Rove decide what religion you should follow if THAT is what you want
    Correct, short, and sweet.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Sorry Gentlemen. The whole intent of the First Amendment was to prevent the Federal government from restricting religious freedom or imposing any requirement for a specific religion on anybody. The Constitution further specifies that this protection extends to those elected to government, hired by government, and appointed by government as well. That protection extends to a Pledge of Allegiance that is said the way most Americans wish to say it and the law does not require anyone to say it who does not wish to say it. It is not a requirement of citizenship nor eligibility for elected office or to be hired or to be appointed to government positions.

    It is not an establishment of religion, and therefore it is not unconstitutional.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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