View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #201
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Where we profoundly disagree is that you seem to think any religious expression in a government setting is an 'establishment of religion'. I don't think you can make a case for that. There is simply no way that a two-word phrase in the Pledge or a generic prayer in any government setting or an art object of anything is an 'establishment of religion'.

    The intent of the Constitution was that government could not use its powers to require you to believe or not believe anything respective of religion, nor can it require you or forbid you to exercise your religious faith in any way that does not break the law or violate the rights of others. Now if you can show me how 'under God' in the Pledge takes anything away from you or requires you to express belief in anything or do anything or forbids you the right to do anything, I'll listen.

    If you cannot do that, then it must be concluded that your adversion to those two words arises not from any violation of your inalienable rights, but rather arises from your own personal prejudice to which you are also entitled. It just doesn't give you the right to dictate a policy contrary to the majority will..
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #202
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Oops, looks like I'm echoing Marchare, but that's because these are such valid points.

  3. #203
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    You may not force it on others, but that doesn't mean others won't.
    When others do, I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you to beat them back. The law protects us both equally.

    That's why religion was kept out of our government. Read the Constitution with the knowledge that the framers deliberately left out religion except in two instances regarding people's freedom of religion and no religious test for office. So we see religion is kept separate from government. That is the rationale.
    No, religion was not kept out of government. Then and now, the government has had chaplains to lead prayers at the beginning of each day the legislature is in session and to provide pastoral counseling for individual legislators. (These chaplains make 6 figures by the way.) There is a world of difference beween government officials or staff being religious and the government requiring others to be religious or dictating how religion is or is not to be expressed.


    You suggest you have an advantage when you are for government sponsored religion (although I can see you don't mean it this way, but it is). In this case, Christianity. Here is an article by a professor of constitutional law that sums up the pledge situation (note that this was in response to the past ruling but still applies today).
    http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5966
    I have not asked for government sponsored religion in any form. I am adamently opposed to government sponsored religion.

    I am also adamently opposed to government sponsored athiesm.

    I am for government allowing a community to be who and what it is so long as it does not infringe on the Constitutionally guaranteed rights of others.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  4. #204
    Educator Columbusite's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Where we profoundly disagree is that you seem to think any religious expression in a government setting is an 'establishment of religion'. I don't think you can make a case for that. There is simply no way that a two-word phrase in the Pledge or a generic prayer in any government setting or an art object of anything is an 'establishment of religion'.

    The intent of the Constitution was that government could not use its powers to require you to believe or not believe anything respective of religion, nor can it require you or forbid you to exercise your religious faith in any way that does not break the law or violate the rights of others. Now if you can show me how 'under God' in the Pledge takes anything away from you or requires you to express belief in anything or do anything or forbids you the right to do anything, I'll listen.

    If you cannot do that, then it must be concluded that your adversion to those two words arises not from any violation of your inalienable rights, but rather arises from your own personal prejudice to which you are also entitled. It just doesn't give you the right to dictate a policy contrary to the majority will..
    Looks like someone needs to read up on decades of court rulings and the reasoning behind them (Did you read the article? I'd be interested to see a response). When the government opens itself up to religion that is a violation of the Consitution. It is unconsitutional and I'm sorry, but your interpretation simply doesn't hold up.

  5. #205
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    Looks like someone needs to read up on decades of court rulings and the reasoning behind them (Did you read the article? I'd be interested to see a response). When the government opens itself up to religion that is a violation of the Consitution. It is unconsitutional and I'm sorry, but your interpretation simply doesn't hold up.
    I read the article and have read many others like it. I will be quite amazed if it is ruled unconstitutional by the SCOTUS and it will eventually wind up there because the judges ruling it unconstitutional are simply applying very bad law. The phrase is not in violation of the Constitution because it is not an establishment of religion nor does it apply any religious test to anybody.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  6. #206
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    It just doesn't give you the right to dictate a policy contrary to the majority will…
    The “majority will” has no power over individual liberty.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    These chaplains make 6 figures by the way
    Six figures! And you insist that I pay for this through taxes! I’m writing my congressperson.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    I am also adamently opposed to government sponsored athiesm.
    Show me how separation of church and state is an endorsment of atheism.
    Peace: the preemptive veteran’s benefit.
    Trade liberty for security and obtain neither of either.
    Whatever is begun in anger ends in shame.

  7. #207
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Every time I see this argument the words petty and obsessive come to mind.



    אשכנזי היהודי • Белый Россию

  8. #208
    Educator Columbusite's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    When others do, I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you to beat them back. The law protects us both equally.



    No, religion was not kept out of government. Then and now, the government has had chaplains to lead prayers at the beginning of each day the legislature is in session and to provide pastoral counseling for individual legislators. (These chaplains make 6 figures by the way.) There is a world of difference beween government officials or staff being religious and the government requiring others to be religious or dictating how religion is or is not to be expressed.




    I have not asked for government sponsored religion in any form. I am adamently opposed to government sponsored religion.

    I am also adamently opposed to government sponsored athiesm.

    I am for government allowing a community to be who and what it is so long as it does not infringe on the Constitutionally guaranteed rights of others.
    The chaiplans shouldn't be there, but they are (even before we were the USA). I'm not paying my tax dollars for them to have chaplains and pray, they are there to represent everyone. Even though this could probably be easily found to be unconstitutional, it is tradition and would be very difficult to stop. We do have total separation, but it obviously isn't always adhered to. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that we shouldn't try to attain it. It's right there in the Constitution (what isn't there is also as important). I oppose goverment siding with religion or non-religion, which is why I'm against having that phrase in the pledge (sides with religion). Most importantly is that it violates the Constitution.

  9. #209
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah
    Every time I see this argument the words petty and obsessive come to mind.

    Not if you look at the big picture. Separation of church and state is what made this country so much freer than others (though we still have a ways to go). I see nothing petty about it.

  10. #210
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    Not if you look at the big picture. Separation of church and state is what made this country so much freer than others (though we still have a ways to go). I see nothing petty about it.
    You have your viewpoint and I have mine. I also find it ironic that your freedoms have not been debased sufficiently by the Pledge conundrum to exclude this very argument.




    אשכנזי היהודי • Белый Россию

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