View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #191
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    Disagree and agree with somethings here. Science related theories have to be in step with science, not religion. Science back in the day was intertwined with religion. That's why they found so many things contrary to what they believed and the church tried put an end to science. Students who believe in the Earth being 6000 years old are free to believe that, but like you said they should gain an understanding of science to get an A in their science class. Just want to clear something up. Christian beliefs and the origin of the universe are not intrinsically at odds. I don't think anyone anywhere thinks all the science we have now will be it and although I disagree, I can see where some would see God has no part in science.
    We aren't really at disagreement at all I think. I am adamently opposed to any form of education that attempts to destroy a child's faith (or an adult's faith for that matter) as it is not necessary to the teaching of a subject. Any science teacher worth his salt will teach the unprovable with a healthy skepticism for its absolute accuracy; i.e. the 'big bang' theory is the most advanced theory we have now, but it has not yet been proved beyond reasonable doubt; thus there is much more yet to explore and learn.

    The reason that God cannot be absolutely dismissed as having a part in science is that nobody can prove that God is not involved. And the reason Creationists should not have the upper hand in scientific theory, is that they cannot prove the existance of God. The wisest course is for both camps to keep an open mind I think.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #192
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    If you said you are pro-black people as long as black people stay out of sight; if you say you are pro-women so long as they stay in the kitchen; if you say you are pro-music so long as you don't have to listen to it, how seriously would you be taken? To say you are pro-religion so long as you don't have to be around it doesn't make much more sense.
    Who said that they didn’t have to be around it? Who implies that religion should be out of sight? People who know me consider me to be very spiritual person, and I enjoy immensely discussing matters of faith and spirituality. You can’t believe everything Rush Limbaugh says about liberals.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    What rights of yours are taken away by a religious presence? The Constitution assures people of faith that their free exercise of religion shall not be prohibited. So if you get your way and all public venues are stripped of any evidence of religion, whose rights are being infringed? Not yours. But the religious have had their Constitutional right denied.
    Religious presence infringes on no right of mine, I insist that free exercise is a human right. You have no constitutional right to express religious beliefs through government.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    What guy is that? And what does that have to do with the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance or evidence of religious belief in the public sector?
    You know very well what guy. The dishonest arrogant crybaby conservative who insists, in the face of all considerations of fairness, that “people of faith” must use the state as a sounding board for religion, that’s who. Don’t you feel a little out of place in a free country?
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  3. #193
    Educator Columbusite's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Whenever my religious beliefs include denying you any legal or inalienable right, then you have an argument.

    But the words 'under God' take nothing at all away from you, require nothing of you, impinge on not one iota of your personal freedom, property, pursuit of happiness, security, opportunities, or well being. You are not required to say them, believe them, or approve of them.

    To remove those two little words, however, does take away from those who want the words in there.

    It doesn't matter whether the words are "under God" or "under Zeus" or "Donald Duck" or "Santa Claus", if they do not infringe on anybody's rights, and the majority wants it that way, then the majority should prevail.

    Such should be the rule of thumb in all such matters. If the community wants a creche on the courthouse lawn at Christmastime, if the community wants traditional Christmas music in the winter concert, if the community likes that granite statue engraved with the Ten Commandments on the Courthouse lawn, then it takes nothing at all away from anybody else nor infringes on anybody's rights for that to happen. If the community, however, allows the creche, they also allow a Minnorah if some in the Jewish community want that too. The community should not be allowed to discriminate against one group in favor of another. As long as there is no intentional discrimination, there is no foul.

    It comes down to the principle of "the free exercise (of religion) shall not be prohibited" by government. None of these things are an establishment of religion by government. All of these things are the free exercise of religion by a particular community. The ACLU should be required to butt out and the anti-religious should get a hobby or something and learn that they cannot dictate how others shall enjoy their constitutional right to an exercise of religion.

    The day a teacher is discriminating against or rewarding children for having a particular religious belief or non belief; the day the community discriminates against one religion in favor of another; etc., then I'll be right there side by side with you protesting that, as that would be a violation of the Constitution.

    But there is nothing stated or implied or intended in the Constitution that all vestiges or evidence or practice of religion be removed from public property. The founders made sure the government could neither require religious beliefs from anyone nor reward or punish anyone for the religious beliefs they held. But they never intended that those in government not be religious or express their religious beliefs. And there certainly would have been horrified to see (expressly unconstitutional) laws that stripped all evidence of religion from the public sector.
    We don't have to wait until your or anyone else's religious beliefs do deny our constitutional rights. The simple fact is that the goverment is to stay out of religion and religion out of government. What those words say is that this is a nation "under God" and we don't need our goverment to say that. This alone seems small, but people just use the pledge, 10 commandments in government buildings, school led prayer, etc combined to bolster their claim that "Look! We have all these things approved by the government because it was based on Christianity." And it certainly seems that way on the surface, but just because these things have/are taking place doesn't make them right or constitutional for that matter. So when these are taken away some Christians aren't happy about being treated equally. They want special governmental preference.

    So you're for majority rule? Sorry, but that's not what this country is about. This is a republic, not a democracy. When the community wants something unconstitutional they are going to be denied, sooner or later and no amount of whining will change that. The only thing I disagree with you on of the situations listed are the 10 commandments (deja vu). I have already refuted this indepth earlier. Putting them up in a courthouse and the government allowing it is indeed out of line with the 1st amendment respecting an establishment of religion. If you say it doesn't I'd like some proof by a legitimate source. In this case they can never be put up by themselves, but with other religious/secular documents. No one by and large, is trying to kick religion out of the public square. Especially the vast majority getting the phrase "under God" and the 10 commandments taken out of government. The only place it is being taken out of is the government where it doesn't belong. The people in government are free to hold their own religious beliefs, but they are there to represent all of us, not just Christians. You are free to keep the phrase if you wish, but not the government. The pledge is pointless anyway and isn't there a commandment that would prohibit pledging allegiance to a flag? Something about false idols I believe.

  4. #194
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by marchare
    Who said that they didn’t have to be around it? Who implies that religion should be out of sight? People who know me consider me to be very spiritual person, and I enjoy immensely discussing matters of faith and spirituality. You can’t believe everything Rush Limbaugh says about liberals.?
    Several have said that religion should be practiced in private and not 'imposed' on others. If you are in that camp, all you have to do is say so. Nobody has mentioned Rush Limbaugh but you. Maybe you should choose a different radio program?

    Religious presence infringes on no right of mine, I insist that free exercise is a human right. You have no constitutional right to express religious beliefs through government.
    I have every right to express religious beliefs through government or anywhere else. The only thing neither I nor the government can do is to require you to believe what is expressed nor reward nor punish you for what you do or do not believe respective to religion.

    You know very well what guy. The dishonest arrogant crybaby conservative who insists, in the face of all considerations of fairness, that “people of faith” must use the state as a sounding board for religion, that’s who. Don’t you feel a little out of place in a free country?
    Don't you feel a little silly about not framing a logical argument and having to resort instead to ad hominem aspersions and erroneous statements?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Well said, Columbusite!
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    I have every right to express religious beliefs through government or anywhere else. The only thing neither I nor the government can do is to require you to believe what is expressed nor reward nor punish you for what you do or do not believe respective to religion.
    Please note that this frightened person insists that he is “militant” about the First Amendment. And no, I don’t feel silly, I am dead serous.
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  6. #196
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by marchare
    Well said, Columbusite!Please note that this frightened person insists that he is “militant” about the First Amendment. And no, I don’t feel silly, I am dead serous.
    Nobody is more militant about the First Amendment than I am. The difference that may exist beween us is that I choose to restrict neither your rights nor mine as respective to the rights affirmed by the First Amendment.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    You have the right to write books, publish sectarian papers, wear symbols in public, teach anything, worship as you please, stand on a corner in any city proselytizing ‘till you turn blue in the face, go door to door witnessing, pray as you wish, communion, confession, be free of taxation of your faith, etc. etc. etc. etc. I think I know why you need the state. The state, unlike your church, has real power over someone like me and my children. How selfish and arrogant.
    Peace: the preemptive veteran’s benefit.
    Trade liberty for security and obtain neither of either.
    Whatever is begun in anger ends in shame.

  8. #198
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by marchare
    You have the right to write books, publish sectarian papers, wear symbols in public, teach anything, worship as you please, stand on a corner in any city proselytizing ‘till you turn blue in the face, go door to door witnessing, pray as you wish, communion, confession, be free of taxation of your faith, etc. etc. etc. etc. I think I know why you need the state. The state, unlike your church, has real power over someone like me and my children. How selfish and arrogant.
    What have I said that would make you believe I would use the State in any way to coerce you or your children? What have I said that restricts you in any way respective to your or your children's faith or lack thereof? What have I said that suggests I should have any right or advantage over you in any way? What have I said that is anything other than I choose to defend my Constitutionally guaranteed right to the free exercise of religion, and to free speech anywhere, any place, and any time even if that speech happens to have religious overtones?

    And while you're at it, please provide your rationale for any notion that the Constitution requires that government be devoid of religious overtones?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #199
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    You clearly believe that “my Constitutionally guaranteed right to the free exercise of religion” translates into the right to “an establishment of religion” by the state. You have “free speech anywhere, any place, and any time even if that speech happens to have religious overtones”, the state simply doesn’t have that right.
    The rational follows

    Amendment 1:
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    Please note also that it doesn’t say “particular religion”, and that God is not mentioned anywhere in our constitution.
    Peace: the preemptive veteran’s benefit.
    Trade liberty for security and obtain neither of either.
    Whatever is begun in anger ends in shame.

  10. #200
    Educator Columbusite's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    What have I said that would make you believe I would use the State in any way to coerce you or your children? What have I said that restricts you in any way respective to your or your children's faith or lack thereof? What have I said that suggests I should have any right or advantage over you in any way? What have I said that is anything other than I choose to defend my Constitutionally guaranteed right to the free exercise of religion, and to free speech anywhere, any place, and any time even if that speech happens to have religious overtones?

    And while you're at it, please provide your rationale for any notion that the Constitution requires that government be devoid of religious overtones?
    You may not force it on others, but that doesn't mean others won't. That's why religion was kept out of our government. Read the Constitution with the knowledge that the framers deliberately left out religion except in two instances regarding people's freedom of religion and no religious test for office. So we see religion is kept separate from government. That is the rationale. You suggest you have an advantage when you are for government sponsored religion (although I can see you don't mean it this way, but it is). In this case, Christianity. Here is an article by a professor of constitutional law that sums up the pledge situation (note that this was in response to the past ruling but still applies today).
    http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5966

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