View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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  • Yes

    133 56.36%
  • No

    103 43.64%
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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #111
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    Re: Judge: Pledge of Allegiance Ruled Unconstitutional

    I think you've pretty well nailed it, Pretender. The term "God" is a pretty broad and non-specific term and pretty generic so far as religion is concerned. A reference to God is not an establishment of religion, more certainly because nobody is required to cite the Pledge nor say God if they choose not to. I support laws that do not require a child to say the pledge if they have moral objection to it (such as Jehovah Witnesses), but it is just as wrong for a few anti-religionists to try to tell me I can't say it if I want to, either.

    Mod note
    This post is from a merged thread
    Mod note.
    Last edited by shuamort; 09-16-05 at 03:09 PM.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by shuamort
    The ACLU hasn't done anything on this case.
    Oh ya try these on for size:

    http://www.aclu.org/court/court.cfm?ID=15298&c=261

    http://www.powervacuum.org/article.p...=thread&tid=13

    http://aclusearch.spacely.com/search...imageField.y=7

    You were saying? How's that foot taste?

  3. #113
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
    Pass the salt. (Good catch. Thanks).

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    Re: Judge: Pledge of Allegiance Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Now U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that the pledge's reference to one nation "under God" violates school children's right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God," and will sign an order making public school subject to the order.
    This judge is smoking crack.

    No-one is coersed into saying the pledge. It is not forced by any means. The term "under God" is even less forced.
    If you analyse it, I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. -Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Mod note

    Merged threads

    /Mod note

  6. #116
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by shuamort
    The ACLU hasn't done anything on this case.

    Not yet anyhow.......

    I guess they already have now.........
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

  7. #117
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride
    Bottom line this country was founded on judo-christian principles and that will never change...........
    And what principles unique to and indicitive of jews and christians was this country founded on? Principles which non-jews and non-christians do not have.

  8. #118
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Alright, here is my logic. Basically, it falls under three categories.

    1.) History. We only put it into the pledge when we were fighting communists so that we could show that we were different than the, I believe an exact quote from people like McCarthy at the time was, "Godless Commies who want to steal our way of life from us..." but I may be mistaken. That was why it was put into the pledge of allegiance. It was not put in to show taht we have a history of religiosity, or to show that our founding fathers were religious (which many of were not, but that is another topic entirely), but merely to fight an enemy. That serves no historical or even practical purpose now. Thus, in a legal argument, it would hold no ground because a lawyer could not argue that it had been in for 200 years and thus showed our religious roots when all it was meant to do was fight an enemy.

    2.) Direct Funding. This is honestly the weakest argument of the three I have to make. This is because it is hardest to prove that all students in the country are forced to say all parts of the pledge, though it is common practice (for those of us who went to public school) to be forced to say the entire thing or suffer detention-and please, little kids don't say anything about it, no matter how much we would like to think they do. I would love to think a daughter of mine would tell me if a teacher forced her to say it, but I doubt that would happen because it is just common practice from what I have seen. It is also hard to prove because it happens at the beginning of the school day, sometimes even before school begins when teachers are technically not paid (thus no taxpayer money...). As I said, it is the hardest part to make, but if you want, I will try and make it....just honestly don't have the patience at this point.

    And 3.) Seperation. Probably the easiest to prove in front of the liberal 4 of the Supreme Court, but harder in front of others. In Lemon v. Kurtzman, the court set up a test to test out what was constitutional and what was not.
    First, the statute must have a secular legislative purpose; second, its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion; finally, the statute must not foster "an excessive government entanglement with religion." (This is a synopsis of what the test is)
    Under God does not serve a secular purpose at all any more which is proven under the history section, but if that argument does not fly with you, then there is another one. Under god also doesn't serve a legislative purpose at all. Think about it. What does it serve...that's right. After the first one is proven, the rest don't really matter because it is an all or nothing.

    But Lemon also allowed for some entanglement of church and state which meant that under god might be theoretically ok if, I believe, it matched up with history, which is a main thing for justices lately. Look, a lot of justices lately, have been going back to original intent of the founders...it wasn't there. That simple.

    Dissect this, have fun with it, and I look forward to your comments because this is one of my favorite topics.

  9. #119
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Hey Mods.....my first post up there was intended as a thread starter and looks kind of silly where it got moved. I don't mind that it was moved at all....but could there be a note or something indicating it was moved from another thread so it wouldn't look so out of context?

    Just a suggestion. (I noted there was a 'merged threads' note--it just didn't fix my 'out of synch' problem there. )
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  10. #120
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    If the Pledge stated: "......,under the God of Isaac, Jacob, and Abraham,. . ." or "The all-knowing, all-powerful, omnipresent God. . ." or "The Creator God of all ages" or "the one and only God", etc., that would be one thing. That would in fact be acknowledging or affirming a specific religion or religions. But the Pledge neither says nor implies that.

    The Jew may think of the God of Abraham, the Christian may think of the God preached about in church, the Moslem may think of the English word for Allah, the athiest may think of a generic source of our inalienable rights, the anti-religionist may think of superstitious myth, or whatever. The Pledge does not specify. The word could be anything or nothing at all.

    Whether or not you like the phrase in the Pledge, it is not an establishment of religion and neither favors nor denies a religious belief. I think it is a virtual certainty that the SCOTUS will see it that same way I do. (Or I them, which sounds a little less egotistical>)
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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