View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #1041
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    All religions contain the seeds violence. They exploit unconscious instinctual motivations pertaining to fear and survival needs. By their nature they're violent. This is why peaceful religions fail.
    Buddhism is a peaceful religion and it hasn't failed.

  2. #1042
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by afr0byte
    Buddhism is a peaceful religion and it hasn't failed.
    That's true. But the muslims did kick the crap out of them in india.
    Looking for a paradigm shift?

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    Cool Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by alex
    Then what is the Establishment Clause of our Constitution?
    Why don't you take the time to read the Federalist Papers and report back?

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Regardless of their motivation, the issue at hand is if the deluded majority can impose their beliefs on the rational minority. Morally, no, they should not be allowed to do so, and they should be opposed at every opportunity.
    You're the one calling every ideology and religion deluded and dangerous mind control so their motivation is very important to distinguish the ways people practice their religion or express their ideology. For instance if this "majority" drives your "rationalist" minority to activism, and you use your "rational" arguments to convince your "rational" minority buddies to join, and some of them take up arms or strap bombs to their chest in the name of this petty cause then your movtive and method is important.

    Also the "deluded" majority of religious believers you speak so fondly of includes "rational" minded people like Einstein, J.S Bach etc.

    I agree, tyranny of the majority should be opposed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    The notion of individual liberty arose out of the reformation? There were these people called "greeks" that had some words to say about that.

    All religions contain the seeds violence. They exploit unconscious instinctual motivations pertaining to fear and survival needs. By their nature they're violent. This is why peaceful religions fail.
    What does this have to do with anything? How does this refute that the protestant movement had a direct affect on the emergence of individual liberty in the renaissance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Oh, don't worry about that, you just did. But don't include me in it. I'm neither narrow nor uninsightful. That's for the dishonest people.
    Sure you are, while I hear, accept and can agree with aspects of your point of view you in turn can't see through your blinders to credit any people driven to achieve by faith or ideals. That's narrow and un-insightful. Dishonest doesn't equate to narrow mindedness, or un-insightfulness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    No, this country was founded by people seeking the freedom to impose their own religious strait-jackets on society. It was the secular avarice of man that built the country to what it is.
    And people seeking religious freedom, AND people seeking economic prosperity, AND people escaping tyranny AND most of those people happen to be christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    People moved to places to make a living first, then to practice their delusions second. Guaranteed that before they found a spot to build a chuch they already knew where the farmhouses were going to be and who would have which parts.
    Gee so it might have been second most important wow how off mark i was! I have to imagine you paying your rent comes before spewing your religion attacks too no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    You brought in the Middle Ages, not me. If you wish to dismantle your argument now, I won't stop you.
    Well considering I didn't think you got your "Religion is evil" from thin air, and you central point is to insult Christians, I assume the middle ages represents for Christianity what your talking about. It also presents a good place to demonstrate a religious movement in that time that had I direct affect on rennaissance notion of individual liberty which your blinders won't allow you to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Isolation is good. If we'd had enough isolation before September 11th, it's more than likely that our double phallus would still be standing, and 3000 people would mostly still be alive today.
    Whatever, another subject altogether

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Oh, if it's a religious ideology, you can be certain that the leaders are expecting to make money off it, or to control the minds of the masses following them. Neither is good, and no one should become entangled in them.

    The only ideology that doesn't require surrendering one's mind to the control of others is libertarianism, which basically says, go do what you want, go think what you want, go feel what you want, I don't care what you do so long as you don't hurt me or others.
    So what else is new. Did I say all ideological leaders were all good?
    The only people who surrender their mind to an ideology are those who don't or can't think for themselves to begin with Christian or otherwise. And once done if they've surrendered their mind to an interpretation of an ideal that prescribes anti-social behavior then its a problem. On the other hand if they've surrendered their mind to an interpretatioin of the ideal that prescribes charity then the result is good. Not everybody in the world has the circumstances, time, education or the desire to explore rational thinking so an ideal is all they have available to define purpose and find meaning in their life outside of their need to survive. Your right to say that leaders will exploit this fact and that's bad. But also there have and will be leaders, like Martin Luther, who genuinely intended on benefiting the people he represented and Christianity was the ideal that provided the meaning and purpose through which his followers stood to benefit. This is not bad nor is wrong.

    I agree with the idea of "do what you want do do as long as it doens't hurt me or others" and incidentally so do most religions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    And a federal law mandating the words "under god" be in the Pledge isn't "forcing something down my throat"?
    If you look at it like that then so be it, I won't argue that. Don't suppose you hear my world's tiniest violin playing for you though because you can't handle a little phrase. po baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Sure they do. One, they're ignorant, and two, they don't have the authority to shut me up. It's a free society, supposedly.
    Yep, you've chosen to insult them for their beliefs and yet they've collectively done nothing to you, good logic. I suppose your right though, you do have the freedom to stand around and whine and offend people whether they harbor ill will for you or not. That's america.
    Ticks, Habits or Behaviors either finds dislikeable in the other gotta be overlooked and taken with a grain of salt.

    Al Swearengen, HBO series Deadwood.

  5. #1045
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy
    You're the one calling every ideology and religion deluded and dangerous mind control so their motivation is very important to distinguish the ways people practice their religion or express their ideology. For instance if this "majority" drives your "rationalist" minority to activism, and you use your "rational" arguments to convince your "rational" minority buddies to join, and some of them take up arms or strap bombs to their chest in the name of this petty cause then your movtive and method is important.
    Just thought I'd add a bit here. I just have to laugh at your Atheist suicide bomber example. There are good reasons why they aren't out there blowing themselves up and I don't need to explain any further.

    If you look at it like that then so be it, I won't argue that. Don't suppose you hear my world's tiniest violin playing for you though because you can't handle a little phrase. po baby.
    Why the hell do you need the government to back your religion? You don't, unless you want control, which is what this is all about.

    Yep, you've chosen to insult them for their beliefs and yet they've collectively done nothing to you, good logic. I suppose your right though, you do have the freedom to stand around and whine and offend people whether they harbor ill will for you or not. That's america.
    I can see how he's being confrontational, but to pretend that a good number Christians don't insult non-believers and believe that "they'll get theirs'" in the afterlife isn't so nice either. Only around 50% of Americans would vote for an Atheist president, so many American Christians are willing to discriminate against them.

    There are a number of Christians who want a theocracy in this country and they have power over the Republican party. That is hardly doing "nothing" to freethinkers, other non-Christians and Christians who aren't far-right and therefore "false Christians". Here in Ohio we have a candidate for governor who said gays are dumber than barnyard animals, there should be no exceptions made for abortions, wants intelligent design/creationism taught in public schools, and is in the pocket of Rev. Parsely, a crooked televangelist (is there any other kind?). Did I mention he's Republican? They both make it very clear that they hold disdain for our Constitution and that makes them and their supporters dangerous to the freedoms we cherish. Unfortunately, one word can sum up why this is going on today: religion. You've got to take the good with the bad instead of dismissing it.
    "To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead."
    - Thomas Paine


    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    - Thomas Jefferson


    "Ours is the first government made by the people and for the people. It is the only nation with which the gods have had nothing to do."
    - Robert G. Ingersoll

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy
    I could care less if we removed "under god" from the pledge or removed all religious symbols from the public domain but when the argument is underscored by rejecting others beliefs as opposed to respecting others beliefs I see the very same symptoms that have led to ideological conflict in the past. I see the nit picking of religious symbolism as its been presented in this thread and in much of this debate in the country as petty and anti religious, not genuine concern for equality (and to those who do stand for the equality alone this doesn't apply).
    As much as you find his views disrespectful (he doesn't mince words), you don't hear him saying that Christians should be banned from practicing their religion and that Atheism should be endorsed by the government. What is anti-religious about saying that you can't have the government back your religion, but you can practice it in your home, church, school, sidewalk, etc? Anti-comingling of religion and government, yes, he is that and it's a good, solid pro-America position.
    "To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead."
    - Thomas Paine


    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    - Thomas Jefferson


    "Ours is the first government made by the people and for the people. It is the only nation with which the gods have had nothing to do."
    - Robert G. Ingersoll

  7. #1047
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Union Jack
    How is Communism a form of Christianity?
    How is Christianity a bad thing?
    Christianity teaches morals which every society does atleast some of what the Bible says.

    Back to the topic,
    The phrase "Under God" should be kept in the pledge. Because we are a nation who was created Under God, we based most of our constitution on the Bible.



    Thomas Jefferson wasn't even a Christian and he said this.
    I'm glad you acknowledge Jefferson was not a Christian.

    Some of the quotes you included in the above thread look suspect to me, especially the language in the George Washington speech to the Indians. Please provide a source for this. I ask because I have searched, and the only places I have seen the words 'Jesus Christ' attributed to a writing or speech of Washington were religious sites, and there appears to be no historical record of him using these words.
    Do not write in this space!

  8. #1048
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    Just thought I'd add a bit here. I just have to laugh at your Atheist suicide bomber example. There are good reasons why they aren't out there blowing themselves up and I don't need to explain any further.
    Just a point. that's all. Its as reasonable to view any group being lead by the wrong people, being sold the worng message, pushing them into the wrong actions. No group is beyond that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    Why the hell do you need the government to back your religion? You don't, unless you want control, which is what this is all about.
    I don't need the government to back a religion and I'm really not religious myself. What we all do need though is toleration. When an issue like this is brought up not on its merit but in order to grandstand a point of view that belittles a group its counter productive and even if the ruling is successful and fair, the outcome is a divisive failure. I personally don't see Under God in the pledge as "controlloing," that's my personal opinion. I do see the religious rights debate on abortion and other matters that you mention below just as dangerous and divisive and I'll stand side by side with you guys to stop them when they're trying to push this stuff on the center and the left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    I can see how he's being confrontational, but to pretend that a good number Christians don't insult non-believers and believe that "they'll get theirs'" in the afterlife isn't so nice either. Only around 50% of Americans would vote for an Atheist president, so many American Christians are willing to discriminate against them.

    There are a number of Christians who want a theocracy in this country and they have power over the Republican party. That is hardly doing "nothing" to freethinkers, other non-Christians and Christians who aren't far-right and therefore "false Christians". Here in Ohio we have a candidate for governor who said gays are dumber than barnyard animals, there should be no exceptions made for abortions, wants intelligent design/creationism taught in public schools, and is in the pocket of Rev. Parsely, a crooked televangelist (is there any other kind?). Did I mention he's Republican? They both make it very clear that they hold disdain for our Constitution and that makes them and their supporters dangerous to the freedoms we cherish. Unfortunately, one word can sum up why this is going on today: religion. You've got to take the good with the bad instead of dismissing it.
    Agreed, I see them as bad as Radical Islam but thankfully we're in a more Civil country. But the problem isn't the belief. The problem is the way the belief is practiced. I don't insult Christians, Jews or any other believers of any practice and to the contrary I respect them and respectfully disagree. I don't call them stupid, I don't call them ignorant and I don't use issues to open the door to belitteling them. And that's what this whole debate seems to be. If this was just being introduced into the pledge I'd say "yea it shouldn't be put there". But all the sudden, the christian right has made a power grab and right is loud so its time to attack the symbolism and belitte them, and not just the one's who are extreme but anybody who is "deluded", "ignorant", (add derrogatory terms here) enough to believe in this "irrational" imaginary god. That I disagree with. Talk about Pat Robinson yea, and the examples you brought up above, that's concise and that's attacking who needs to be attacked not the group that he's a part of.

    Its funny because I generally do support yours and Scarecrow's side on this, but, I can't support, and wouldn't want the support of those who can't discern their personal prejudice from their public stance no matter who's doing it. People don't disagree cause they veiw the world differently based on their ideology, they disagree because they can't accept others that view the world differently. That's the problem, not ideology. In every group there's leaders and followers. In every group there's the potential for Leaders who teach anti-social ways of practice what the group believes (some beliefs albeit more prone than others to this). In every group there's the protential leaders who teach socially admirable and benevolent ways of practicing their belief. I take the "anti-social" grandstanding ones whichever side of the fence they're on and point to them as the cause of violence and injustice not the belief they've distorted.
    Ticks, Habits or Behaviors either finds dislikeable in the other gotta be overlooked and taken with a grain of salt.

    Al Swearengen, HBO series Deadwood.

  9. #1049
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    I don't understand how it is "intolerant" to oppose people hijacking the government to market a Santa Clause-like figure. Also, I hear about this history excuse. We already have museums. When Did the big J.C. ever come to America. America isn't even mentioned in the Bible. It must not be the promised land.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry
    The Amish are light-years ahead of the rest of the human race.



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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Why You Should Not Obey Religious Advice From The Government

    If you so much as even consider the advice of the government on religious matters, you are on the highway to hell. You are rejecting the absolute and exclusive authority of Christ over the things that are be rendered only to God.

    It makes no difference whether the government's advice is good or bad or true or false. The religious advice that the Serpent/Satan gave to Eve was good and true advice. But she still should not have allowed it to influence her religious duty not to eat the forbidden fruit.

    When Even was accused of violating her duty to God, the Serpent/Satan was not there to defend her. When you are accused of obeying the religious commandments of the government instead of your conscience and Christ, the government will not be there to defend you.

    No man can serve two masters. You need to decide who is the authority over your duties to God. Choose either the government or God?

    FVF

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