View Poll Results: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

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Thread: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

  1. #1021
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by shuku
    Well, I think that it was more of the communist choice to choose atheism because it best suited their needs. Therefore, atheism helps communists, but doesn't cause them. Not as though communism is a bad thing, Just the dictatorships that claimed to be them.
    Communism is merely another religion. One has to believe in the impossible to be a communist or a Christian. Clearly communism is a form of Christianity, since its concept of blind faith best suits its needs.

    Communism is a bad thing.

    So is Christianity.

    So is any other irrational belief system.

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by George_Washington
    It's not really as black and white as you think. Conservatives aren't just cowboys riding horses in vacant farming fields. There are many people who live in cities that are conservative. For example, the upper east and west sides of Manhattan are mostly Republican, actually. Steve Forbes is an example of an urban guy who is conservative on religious issues and has always lived an urban life. It depends on what you mean by, "urban". If you mean the ghettos and slums, yes, most of them vote Democratic. And yes, your average struggling person in manhattan would lean towards voting Democratic because they tend to view that party as being more for the little guy, even though this isn't true a lot of the time. But there are plenty of people in cities that vote Republican just because of various reasons. Bill O'Reilly and Donald Trump are also people that have come from urban backgrounds that vote Republican.

    Anyway, back to the issue at hand-Living an urban life doesn't mean that you would suddenly become anti-religious or liberal. Some of the most beautiful Churches have been built in urban areas. There are more religious elements in Rome, for example, than there are in rural areas of Italy. It seems like you mean to imply that conservatives aren't as, "cultural" as liberals and that just isn't the case.

    That's why I said "most cases", which is true, and conservatives have a record of being anti-art. I'm not just talking about the ghettos either and in the pricier urban neighborhoods here you have a more liberal populace even without the ghetto factor. In fact, the gay communtiy in Columbus was a big part of revitalizing the area north of downtown now known as the Short North making it one of the most interesting spots and the top destination for art, among other things, in the city. This wouldn't have happened in a conservative area where there isn't tolerance or acceptance of gay people let alone a sizeable population to support art, especially pretentious overpriced garbage. In virtually every large city here you will find a much higher number of people with liberal attitudes and I don't know how you could dispute that unless you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

    I don't get where this "anti-religious" thing came from. I'm not anti-religion except for dangerous versions of religion and even then I make that distinction. Just because I strongly believe that the world would have been better off without it doesn't mean I'm anti-religion. Many people are reasonable and faithful and I don't see the point in berating them to drop their religion especially when they don't pose a threat.
    Last edited by Columbusite; 04-25-06 at 12:42 AM.
    "To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead."
    - Thomas Paine


    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    - Thomas Jefferson


    "Ours is the first government made by the people and for the people. It is the only nation with which the gods have had nothing to do."
    - Robert G. Ingersoll

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    And I've yet to hear a well-reasoned argument as to why we should jeopordize our separation of church & state just so that people can acknowledge God, which they were/are already free to do at their leisure.
    "To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead."
    - Thomas Paine


    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    - Thomas Jefferson


    "Ours is the first government made by the people and for the people. It is the only nation with which the gods have had nothing to do."
    - Robert G. Ingersoll

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by FredFlash
    If the First U. S. Congress wanted to prohibit the central government from establishing a religion, why did it establish two of them in 1789 by electing Chaplains and paying them from the national taxes?
    http://72.14.207.104/custom?

    They were wrong:

    While some argue that the Framers added the word “respecting” simply to foreclose federal interference with State establishments of religion, see, e.g., Amar, The Bill of Rights as a Constitution, 100 Yale L. J. 1131, 1157 (1991), the language sweeps more broadly than that. In Madison's words, the Clause in its final form forbids “everything like” a national religious establishment, see Madison's “Detached Memoranda” 558, and, after incorporation, it forbids “everything like” a State religious establishment.4 Cf. Allegheny County, 492 U. S., at 649 (opinion of Stevens, J.). The sweep is broad enough that Madison himself characterized congressional provisions for legislative and military chaplains as unconstitutional “establishments.” Madison's “Detached Memoranda” 558–559; see infra, at 16–17, and n. 6.

    q=cache:PgeK22WTtLsJ:http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/wor...86294391143372
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Clearly communism is a form of Christianity, since its concept of blind faith best suits its needs.

    Communism is a bad thing.

    So is Christianity.
    How is Communism a form of Christianity?
    How is Christianity a bad thing?
    Christianity teaches morals which every society does atleast some of what the Bible says.

    Back to the topic,
    The phrase "Under God" should be kept in the pledge. Because we are a nation who was created Under God, we based most of our constitution on the Bible.

    "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian." - United States Supreme Court, 1892
    “What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”
    --George Washington in a speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779

    "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."

    "It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."
    "For my own part, I sincerely esteem it a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [Alexander Hamilton 1787 after the Constitutional Convention]
    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

    Declaration of Independence 1776
    "God who gave us life and liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."

    Thomas Jefferson 1781
    Thomas Jefferson wasn't even a Christian and he said this.

  6. #1026
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Union Jack
    How is Communism a form of Christianity?
    How is Christianity a bad thing?
    Christianity teaches morals which every society does atleast some of what the Bible says..
    Look at Jesus telling people to give away their belongings to the poor and how it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven.

    Umm, do you have any knowledge of history? Because if you did you wouldn't have asked that question. Many of the most twisted instruments of torture were the result of Christianity.

    True, but it also taught that slavery is OK and that women are inferior beings among other things. The good that is in the Bible can be found all over the world in places were Christianity wasn't an influence.

    Back to the topic,
    The phrase "Under God" should be kept in the pledge. Because we are a nation who was created Under God, we based most of our constitution on the Bible.
    Your quotes proved nothing. Try proving that our Constitution was at all based on the Bible. No mention of God, Jesus, Christianity, the Bible, gee, they wouldn't have been trying to keep it out of government would they? Why don't you read the Constitution (which was a compromise) and see what America is all about vs what you want it to be. Apparently, you want a theocratic government which means you couldn't be more anti-American. I have had it up to here with people spewing this un-American crap. If you're doing it out of ignorance I won't be quite as hard on you, but in any case it speaks volumes that you don't even know the basics of our founding document and that being the case you simply couldn't be described as a good American citizen.

    Oh yes, look up the Jeffersonian Bible and then tell me he was a Christian. (If you're too lazy, he cut out all of the Bible including Jesus' miracles and just kept Jesus' teachings)
    "To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead."
    - Thomas Paine


    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    - Thomas Jefferson


    "Ours is the first government made by the people and for the people. It is the only nation with which the gods have had nothing to do."
    - Robert G. Ingersoll

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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by George_Washington
    Atheism and irradication of religion was mentioned in Karl Marx's writings on Marxism, which was the basis for modern communism. Atheism is mentioned in his writings as being one of the key basics of marxism, therefore, it is related to communism.
    You are aware that cause is usually placed before the effect?

    There was oxygen before there was land life, therefore clearly oxygen is related to land life.


    Quote Originally Posted by George_Washington
    If I write a book on jet engines, advocate a certain kind of design, and include fiber optics in that design, than fiber optics is clearly a component of my jet engine.
    So, are jet engines the cause of fiber optics, or is fiber optics a seperately bred technology with an application in propulsion? Clearly the latter.

    As a debater, I would expect you to see that, but nooo, you're insisting on getting milk from the calf.

    Quote Originally Posted by George_Washington
    As an engineer, I would think you would be able to understand this concept but if you want to choose to deny the obvious, that's ok, I don't care.
    I understand the concept thoroughly, after all, as an engineer, I'm not allowed to do things backwards, they don't work in the real world. Thus I'm more than aware of your error.

    Communism is a faith-based political ideology that adopted atheism as a means of eliminating competition with other forms of mind control, like religion. That doesn't mean atheism is a product of communism, it doesn't mean atheists are communists, it means communists didn't want competition from the Jesus freaks and the towelheads.

  8. #1028
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Union Jack
    How is Communism a form of Christianity?
    It's just like Christianity in that it demands followers to hold an unswerving faith in the truth of socialism, just like all Christians have to believe, without a shred of doubt, that Mary was a virgin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Union Jack
    How is Christianity a bad thing?
    1) It demands that men believe rather than think. This is pure evil.

    2) It's the origin of socialism.

    3) It's based on lies...ie, a book of the occult called "The Bible".

    Three's good enough for here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Union Jack
    Christianity teaches morals which every society does atleast some of what the Bible says.
    Morals are rational concepts of behavior requiring an individual to recognize the humanity of others is the same as his own.

    The Bible teaches that if you don't behave, God will punish you. As for any pretense at overlap between good morals in society and Biblical morality, well, let's just say that rules against murder, theft, adultery, and perjury predate any extant religion because societies that permit such don't survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Union Jack
    Back to the topic,
    The phrase "Under God" should be kept in the pledge. Because we are a nation who was created Under God, we based most of our constitution on the Bible.
    But we're not a nation under God. There's no God, so clearly we can't be a nation under Her.

    No part of the constitution has direct Biblical reference.

  9. #1029
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbusite
    And I've yet to hear a well-reasoned argument as to why we should jeopordize our separation of church & state just so that people can acknowledge God, which they were/are already free to do at their leisure.
    First, in reading some of this thread, I find it truly Ironic that liberals in the US , and I'm assuming that the anti-christian movement in this country is primarily the liberal wing of our society but I may be wrong, have decided to behave so anti-liberal by attacking and attempting to dis-credit Christians because Christians happen to strongly believe in their religion. You're all willing to attack christian symbolism because you disagree with Christians politically and what they stand for and mask it under the separation of Church and state. I ask you, did you give the same argument against memorializing Rosa Parks in the Nations capital that you have with "under god" in the pledge? Or is the fair and equal treatment of all races, religions and movements that are recognized by our country as important mile stones in our history not applicable to christianity as much as African American Civil Rights?

    For you "Rational Thinkers" I think a little tolerance is in order considering the country that has allowed you to become rational and reject the sacred in favor of the secular was founded and built by these "Irrational" Christians. As a matter of fact it was in large part the protestant reformation spear headed by Martin Luther that lead to the adoption of the separation of Church and State and the focus on individual liberty in Europe and thus America in the first place. The argument that religion leads to violence and intolerance is mis-placed, mis-represented and mis-used in here, recognizing none of these facts, in an effort to dis-credit the faithful and eliminate any remnants of the sacred part of our past that was equally if not more important to the development of this nation than any other movement in our history.

    Its absolutely rediculous to attempt to separate the founding of this country, and the creation of its laws and culture from the Protestant movement that migrated to this country in the late middle ages and has propagated itself to the present day.

    Its equally rediculous to postulate that the separation of church and state emobidied in our constitution was premised on any other notion than the need to secure the freedom of all Americans to practice their religion without the interference of the state or imposition of pre-determined religious doctrine by the state. And to that end, no american is being denied their freedom to live and practice their faith (or lack thereof) or being forced to practice religion by our government and rather its the opposite, our government and country, composed primarily of christians, has demonstrated great tolerance in the face of secular changes that have been just as threatening to the moral fabric of our society as religious extremism.

    Quite Frankly I don't care what your opinion is about the rationality of religion because it carries no weight in this argument. Believe what you want to believe, that's american. What's not American is attacking symbolism in this country that represents what this country's culture and society was founded upon simply because you don't believe what those symbols represent (although i'd gather that most of you believe in the non-god specific commandments of the 10 commandments).
    Ticks, Habits or Behaviors either finds dislikeable in the other gotta be overlooked and taken with a grain of salt.

    Al Swearengen, HBO series Deadwood.

  10. #1030
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    Re: Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy
    Quite Frankly I don't care what your opinion is about the rationality of religion because it carries no weight in this argument. Believe what you want to believe, that's american. What's not American is attacking symbolism in this country that represents what this country's culture and society was founded upon simply because you don't believe what those symbols represent (although i'd gather that most of you believe in the non-god specific commandments of the 10 commandments).
    The country was also founded on spin by spin doctors. They are not deities. Are our government buildings supposed to be there to provide services to the people. We already have museums for our history. Don't kill and don't steal are the only commandments that are laws. So what gives with the other 8?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry
    The Amish are light-years ahead of the rest of the human race.



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