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Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

I personally feel transgender individuals are...


  • Total voters
    58
It's such a pity Jallman...

At last, I thought, you and I were going to finally discuss something where you don't talk thru your ass. Your post come off as insensitive, pompous, and childish.

It seems every time I encounter you, you just want to revert back to this childishness. Again, I am robbed of a meaningful conversation with you. If you wish to discuss this like adults, cease the childishness.

**** you lightdemon. If you can't handle a conversation without throwing out insults directly at your opponent like "childish", you're the one with the problem. And I see Captain lampreyed right to a post with the thanks button even though it's his job to put a stop to such insults being hurled at other posters.

Would that be the selective moderation we all keep talking about? Hmmm? I wonder...:lol:
 
I don't believe Jallman thinks the disorder itself is "pretend."

He asserted a "surgical solution" which involves manipulation/mutilation of ones genitals offers up a "pretend" delusion. The man who genuinely thinks he is in the wrong body cannot become a woman no matter how many surgical alterations he undergoes, no matter how many drugs he takes. No matter what he does he will still be a man, albeit an altered man. But a man nonetheless, not a woman. That's where the fantasy/pretend/delusion part comes into play. With surgery and hormones the aim is to get as close to the goal as possible so you can pretend you are in the "right" body. So you can pretend you are the right gender.

But you're not. You can't be. A man can't become a woman and vice versa. I'm sure the disorder is real. I'm sure there are folks who really feel like they are in the wrong body. But there's no surgical solution to that which doesn't involve fantasy and pretending, as Jallman said.

Watch it talloulou, lest you be labeled childish and pompous for having acknowledged simple reality. :doh
 
Does an amputee pretend that he has a new arm when given a prosthetic? Does a man who had heart replacement surgery pretend that he has a new heart? Does an old woman who is hooked up to a respirator machine pretend that the machine is her new lungs?

These are solutions. Not "pretend" or "fantasy" things.

None of these examples even come close to altering the gender of a person. Each of these examples does nothing more than make a component of the person functional again. With gender reassignment for Ms. Gender Pretend Disorder, the core of the person is changed to fit a fantasy perception of herself.
 
Particularly from someone whose lifestyle choice would be characterized with similar terms not so long ago. A man who recently married his boyfriend and yet votes and promotes the party that would take that away from him, that thinks he is a disgrace to family values.

You know nothing of what you spew. Again, you prove how absolutely dense you are.
 
As an addendum to my last post:

Again, Jallman could have chosen much better words in his post. "Obsession" "mutilate" and "pretend" were not accurate. These are clearly offensive, and uncalled for.

And as an addendum to my post to you:

Again, I don't give a flying rat's ass what words you wish I had chosen. You don't write my posts for me and if you find them so offensive, report them as such or don't ****ing answer them and move on.

Obsession, SURGICAL mutilation, and pretend were spot on accurate. Deal with it or refute it. Shouldn't be too hard with CC, our resident Freud, riding on your shoulder.
 
I choose "other" because I don't give a **** and it ain't any of my damned business.
 
What the hell even is transgender?

Someone who suffers from the socially enabled delusion that it's okay to mutilate your genitalia to fit a pretend perception of yourself.
 
Someone who suffers from the socially enabled delusion that it's okay to mutilate your genitalia to fit a pretend perception of yourself.

So are you saying you know what's best for their genitalia and should be able to dictate the terms of use? Cause why isn't it ok for someone the "mutilate" their own genitalia if that's what they want to do?
 
What the hell even is transgender?

It's loosely defined as any form of gender bending. It could be a woman trying to break into a field of work considered mens work. If you ask my grandpop he thinks long haired guys who wear earrings are transgendered.

For the purpose of this thread though I think we're talking about folks who are not happy with their male/female biological reality and thus aim to change it or create the illusion that it has changed.
 
So are you saying you know what's best for their genitalia and should be able to dictate the terms of use? Cause why isn't it ok for someone the "mutilate" their own genitalia if that's what they want to do?

I don't determine this. Medical ethics determines this. It is a pointless procedure meant to repair nothing. That goes against the grain of medical ethics just like cosmetic surgery, in my opinion.

When the mind suffers a delusion, it makes no sense to cut off the penis to fix it. :roll:
 
So are you saying you know what's best for their genitalia and should be able to dictate the terms of use? Cause why isn't it ok for someone the "mutilate" their own genitalia if that's what they want to do?

Cause it's self destructive, irrational, and pointless. Should drs. really be paid to deal with mental illness in a way that's self destructive? Should the anorexic be allowed to starve under the guidance of a dr? Should drs. be cutting into the breasts of healthy women and stuffing them with balloons? Should drs. get paid for **** like what some witch dr. did to Michael Jacksons face?

Drs. should be held accountable for what they do.
 
I don't determine this. Medical ethics determines this. It is a pointless procedure meant to repair nothing. That goes against the grain of medical ethics just like cosmetic surgery, in my opinion.

When the mind suffers a delusion, it makes no sense to cut off the penis to fix it. :roll:

Not to you or I, but who made you king of genitalia? If someone wants to lop it off, why can't they? It's theirs is it not? Medical ethics prevents one from allowing people to die who could have been saved; not performing surgery which could improve the emotional state and well being of a patient.

Just cause you don't like it doesn't necessarily make it any of your business.
 
Not to you or I, but who made you king of genitalia? If someone wants to lop it off, why can't they? It's theirs is it not? Medical ethics prevents one from allowing people to die who could have been saved; not performing surgery which could improve the emotional state and well being of a patient.

Just cause you don't like it doesn't necessarily make it any of your business.

Hey Ikari...did you forget something? This is a debate sight...not congress. No one is legislating what people can do with their genitalia here...just offering our thoughts on the situation. Can you do that too? Because honestly, this whole line of attack that offering an opinion on the topic is somehow making me a genitalia nazi is getting old already.
 
Not to you or I, but who made you king of genitalia? If someone wants to lop it off, why can't they? It's theirs is it not? Medical ethics prevents one from allowing people to die who could have been saved; not performing surgery which could improve the emotional state and well being of a patient.

Just cause you don't like it doesn't necessarily make it any of your business.

That's my point. There's no proof that it does improve the emotional state or well being of the patient.

In fact studies show plastic surgery doesn't do that, not by far. People who undergo drastic plastic surgery are statistically more unhappy than the general population and the unhappiness statistically doesn't change post-op because when the body was pathologically healthy the unhappiness was mental thus not amendable to correction with a knife.

If these drs are not statistically improving the well being of their patients then what are they doing?

In my mind they're exploiting mental illness for profit. Selling illusions for dollars without ever having the intention of resolving the real problem - the mental dysphoria. Preying on the weak. These drs. in all likelihood are causing more harm than good.
 
Cause it's self destructive, irrational, and pointless.

So is eating McDonald's everyday...we gonna go bitch about that? When the hell did that become illegal; why the hell should it be illegal? Who are you to say what's irrational and pointless. Maybe people find a lot of relief in it, maybe they find themselves in a happier place more able to deal with everyday life because of it. Who the hell are you to say no? Tom Cruise or something over there telling us what we should and shouldn't do like you know the minds of others. Keep your nose out of other people's business...if someone wants to be self-destructive; let them. Their body, their choice, their business.

Should drs. really be paid to deal with mental illness in a way that's self destructive?

Why not? It's just your definition of self-destructive in this case anyway. And last I checked, no one died and made you king of psychology. If someone wants to pay a doctor to "mutilate" themselves....their choice. What's it to you? How is this any of your business? Why should you even have a say in the matter? And how do you even know it's self-destructive. You a neurologist? A psychologist? You know how the brain works and how people feel? If they truly percieve themselves to something and move in that direction and it makes them happy and better able to interact with the rest of society, who the hell are you to say "no"?

Should the anorexic be allowed to starve under the guidance of a dr?

Yes

Should drs. be cutting into the breasts of healthy women and stuffing them with balloons?

Yes

Should drs. get paid for **** like what some witch dr. did to Michael Jacksons face?

Yes

Drs. should be held accountable for what they do.

They are.
 
Hey Ikari...did you forget something? This is a debate sight...not congress. No one is legislating what people can do with their genitalia here...just offering our thoughts on the situation. Can you do that too? Because honestly, this whole line of attack that offering an opinion on the topic is somehow making me a genitalia nazi is getting old already.

Hey jallman, I'm debating. Did you forget that on a debate site people may have other opinions counter to your own? I did offer my opinion; it's stupid to give a **** about what other people choose to do to themselves especially if they do it in a manner to feel more comfortable with who they are. Here's a continuation of my opinion; it ain't none of your business what people choose to do in this case, their property their rules. Here is more of my opinion; social engineering prudes need to butt out! People should be free to do as they like so long as they ain't hurting anyone else in the process.
 
You know nothing of what you spew. Again, you prove how absolutely dense you are.
So you didn't post this post?
http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-pa...n-disgrace-mother-again-4.html#post1057766085

Or have I misunderstood it?

Josh and I are already married. It happened on September 10th at 2:30PM at the Redwood City courthouse.

He is still planning a large gathering on October 9th of 2009 for family, friends, and associates at the Meritage in Napa Valley where we will have a ceremony for them and a huge dinner/party before we go on our "honeymoon" in the Mediterrenean two days later.

I have not renounced the Church.
 
So is eating McDonald's everyday...we gonna go bitch about that? When the hell did that become illegal; why the hell should it be illegal? Who are you to say what's irrational and pointless. Maybe people find a lot of relief in it, maybe they find themselves in a happier place more able to deal with everyday life because of it. Who the hell are you to say no? Tom Cruise or something over there telling us what we should and shouldn't do like you know the minds of others. Keep your nose out of other people's business...if someone wants to be self-destructive; let them. Their body, their choice, their business.
That's all very nice and libertarian.

My concerns stem from the belief that all forms of dysphoria have a mental component. Surgical alterations are usually permanent while a variety of mental illnesses are not. A guy who absolutely feels that he mentally cannot live with his penis may not in fact be as hysterical if given time and treatment of the deeper mental issues. What the man wants is to be made a woman. This is not doable so ****ing around with his genitals with a knife is insane. Mentally ill people shouldn't be exploited. Depressed people especially shouldn't be exploited. Those are my only concerns.
 
So is eating McDonald's everyday...we gonna go bitch about that? When the hell did that become illegal; why the hell should it be illegal?

It shouldn't. It doesn't require medical intervention to reverse the effects or to even bring about that effect in the first place.

Who are you to say what's irrational and pointless.

A person on a debate site offering opinions as we are here to do. If you don't like opinions, don't have one.

Maybe people find a lot of relief in it, maybe they find themselves in a happier place more able to deal with everyday life because of it.

That remains to be seen. The MAYBE is why we're having this discussion to start with, no?

Who the hell are you to say no?

A person on a debate site offering an opinion as we are expected to do. If you don't like opinions, don't have one.

Tom Cruise or something over there telling us what we should and shouldn't do like you know the minds of others. Keep your nose out of other people's business...if someone wants to be self-destructive; let them. Their body, their choice, their business.

Yes well...that fairly puts an end to all debate. Thank you, Ikari. You have just made peace throughout the entire DP site with your insightful analysis of why debate just should not occur.
 
That's my point. There's no proof that it does improve the emotional state or well being of the patient.

The individual seems to think so though. And if they're happy, then who am I to say that what they did is wrong. So long as they ain't hurting no one else, I don't see what the problem is.

In fact studies show plastic surgery doesn't do that, not by far. People who undergo drastic plastic surgery are statistically more unhappy than the general population and the unhappiness statistically doesn't change post-op because when the body was pathologically healthy the unhappiness was mental thus not amendable to correction with a knife.

How is that my fault or problem? People can choose to go under the knife. Some like it, some hate it; it was a personal choice with consequences they have to live with. Live and let live, that's what I say. Do what you want so long as you don't infringe upon the rights of others in the process.

If these drs are not statistically improving the well being of their patients then what are they doing?

Making money hand over fist

In my mind they're exploiting mental illness for profit. Selling illusions for dollars without ever having the intention of resolving the real problem - the mental dysphoria. Preying on the weak. These drs. in all likelihood are causing more harm than good.

I think a lot of people do that. The whole of scientology I would claim does that. But it doesn't mean that I think we should go take down Scientology....well I mean that I think it should really go away, but there isn't any rightful means by which I can accomplish that. So I'll continue letting people be fools if they want to be fools and move on.
 
First, I'm not assuming the person is confused. Confused wouldn't be my word choice. As with any dysphoria I believe they're ultimately unhappy. They are mentally not content with their body. When the body is pathologically healthy the malcontent, the way I see it, has to be a product of the mind.

Yes, we agree. Malcontent does come from the mind, as does with any type of perception.

A dr. -no matter how good or expensive- cannot turn a man into a woman. This is the reality. To charge them, exploit them, and surgically alter them is a shoddy attempt at healing the dysphoria. When all is said and done they will still be a man, a surgically altered man, but still a man. All this at the expense of a healthy body. The once healthy body, unhealthy mind now becomes an unhealthy mind and unhealthy body.

Why does the mind stay unhealthy even after the surgery? Are you saying that even after the solution, the delusion still exists? Well, sure it does exist, but that doesn't mean it's still unhealthy.

A man who has schizophrenia will still have schizophrenia even though he learned how to deal with it, whether by drugs or by behavioral modification. But after having dealt with the problem, I would say that is a step toward being more healthy at the very least.

Given that the solution for GID isn't always surgery, the step toward addressing the problem is always healthy.

If you want to argue that it's healthy for a man to remove his healthy penis I'll just agree to disagree. The removal of a penis is not a benign alteration. It's drastic. It's also pointless in that at first the dr. is dealing with a man who wants to be a woman. Post surgery the dr. is dealing with a penis-less man who wants to be a woman. No healing of any kind occurred and the procedure is irreversible! At this point the dr. should be ashamed of themselves, my opinion of course.

I would argue against your claim that no healing would occur after the surgery. As it has been shown earlier in this thread that many Transsexuals become much more healthier and their moods and behaviors improve.

Meanwhile gender roles change constantly. There's no reason a healthy man can't adopt the appearance of a "woman" without self destruction. There's no reason for the knife and the destruction of healthy tissue unless the patient is lead to believe that the illusion will be so real, so good, that others will be fooled. That for all intent and purposes he as a man has become a woman.

However society has shown time and time again that they don't buy into such illusions. No amount of surgery makes a man a woman and ultimately the illusion fails its intended purpose.

Yes, but there are two goals here. To appear a woman or a man isn't the only thing that Transsexuals want (public perception). It is also done out of self-satisfaction, so that they can address their feeling and identity of the opposite sex (self-perception).

The surgery is done for public perception as much as it is done for self-perception. Lest we forget, the objective here was to heal the mind of the afflicted person, the Transsexual. The self. The mind. In this regard, satisfying the public is a secondary goal.

I think it's far better to encourage the person to take care of their healthy body, be glad that their body is healthy, and go ahead and encourage them to defy gender roles every which way till Sunday without bringing physical harm to the healthy body they do have. Every effort should be made to help them be comfortable within their own skin.

I'm not 100% sure of what the procedure or protocol is for counseling people with GID. But I am sure that the counselor/clinician will have gone over the pros and cons of the surgery and other solutions, prior to their decision to go under the knife. Or at least that is what should be the ideal.

Let's say you're right. Let's say it's possible an individual genuinely is "trapped" in the wrong body, the wrong gender. I'll go ahead and accept that premise.

It doesn't change the argument that they shouldn't do bodily harm to themselves. It doesn't change the FACT that a dr. can't make a man a woman.

People self harm for a wide variety of reasons. No matter what the underlying cause we normally steer away from allowing them to continue to do that. Gender disorders shouldn't be treated any differently. If you could make a man a woman then that would be different. That would be a "cure." But you can't. So you're just allowing them to self mutilate. We wouldn't allow a "cutter" to keep cutting as long as they did it in a way that never resulted in death. We certainly wouldn't do it and call it a cure. We wouldn't allow drs. to set up shop where they make appts to routinely safely cut cutters in a sterile clean environment and call that a cure for whatever dysphoria they had. The very idea is insane.

If you've truly accepted my premise, then you shouldn't have arrive to the conclusion of self harm. If we can determine their gender identity, then the solution is to change the body. Since it is no longer the mind that is unfit for the body, that means the body is unfit for the mind.

Therefore it isn't self harm, it's corrective surgery.

As a side note, I would advise against using categorically different disorders such as "cutters" (as you referred it) for comparisons. "Cutters" would be in the OCD category (compulsive-compulsive disorder). What we are discussing is identity, thus Gender Identity Disorder.

An unhealthy mind needs to be surrounded by healthy minds that aim to heal. It's a disservice to offer them up insane "cures" that are self destructive, illusionary, and without purpose.

But there is a purpose, are you not going to acknowledge that?

I don't think any psychologists on Earth believe there are "cures" to any type of disorder. What clinical psychologists do is help. They determine the problem with the help of their clients, and they both resolve the problem together. This meets your requirements, correct? The only problem is that you don't seem to think corrective surgery is a solution for GID...
 
It's loosely defined as any form of gender bending. It could be a woman trying to break into a field of work considered mens work. If you ask my grandpop he thinks long haired guys who wear earrings are transgendered.

For the purpose of this thread though I think we're talking about folks who are not happy with their male/female biological reality and thus aim to change it or create the illusion that it has changed.


..........wierd.
 
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