blickblocks

I think it's incredible how nearly every person in this thread focused solely on surgery. The body does not solely determine identity. The body is simply an avatar for the mind (and how you dress and your innate personality and mannerisms contribute to this avatar). Most transpeople don't actually get SRS (sex reassignment surgery).

Has no one considered that what transsexuals are looking for is simply to have their identity respected? Is that so difficult? Seriously, don't even think about what they have between their legs, because it shouldn't matter. Who thinks about other people's genitals that much? I don't.

FallingPianos

one of my good friends is a transsexual woman.

she is not insane in any way. she has no delusions about her body. she understands that her body is genetically and physiologically male. shes post-operative, but she understands her vag will never be quite like someone who is born female. shes reminded twice a day when she has to dilate. and shes painfully aware of the fact that she will never be able to bear children.

its not about the body.

she has felt "different" for as long as she can remember, though she wasn't capable of understanding the complexities until she was a teenager.

as a kid, playing dress-up wasn't just about fun and fantasy like it is for other kids. for her, playing dress-up was one of the rare times when she felt comfortable with herself.

now that she has transitioned, there is nothing that makes her different from other women, other than some physiological differences. you would never even know that she was born with a male body if she didn't tell you. being transsexual is a big part of her identify, but certainly not the biggest part. no different than being male or being female is part of your own identify.

I asked her once whether she thought that the pain with being transsexual is solely caused by peoples reaction to it, or if being transsexual is also inherently painful. she wasn't sure, but she thought that there was probably some inherent discomfort with having a body that fundamentally does not match who you are on the inside, but that societies reaction was definitely the most painful part.

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Oftencold

I'm sorry I just don't buy it. Gender, in a biologically normal human, is the state of being an XY chromosome type or an XX chromosome type, it's that simple.

A Mental deviation from reality that causes dysfunctional is a pretty fair definition for mental illness.

We are all given roles to play in life and conform to some extent to form a civilization.

I modify my own (probably terrible) natural behavior and so do you, to function in polite society.

Gender is a role one is given by nature, and it is easy to conform to that role in modern Western civilization, the allowed behaviors are very wide, even in mainstream company. It's not like a male with gentle feelings and a mild manner is likely to be an outcast, not a woman who wishes to be a construction worker.

My personal belief its that what most of these people suffer from is a pathological need for attention, and to cause outrage. That's not to say they are evil, just maladjusted, many people are in one way or another.

FallingPianos

transsexual people are fully aware of the genetic and physiological state of their bodies.

(not to mention that there are plenty of natural genetic disorders that prove that its not just a matter of being xx or xy. androgen insensitivity disorder is one of the best known of them)

can you back up our assertion that gender roles are given by nature, rather than constructed by society?

most mammals have some amount of sexually dimorphic behavior, but there is always a small amount of overlap. there is nothing unnatural about this.

its a common misconception that transsexual people always try to conform to the gender roles given by society that fit their gender identity. the trans woman I know actually has a fairly masculine personality, and most people consider her to be tomboyish. whether her personality is masculine or feminine, she still identifies as a woman.

also... I have to wonder where you've been. I was teased a lot growing up because I wasn't girly enough. and even as an adult people occasionally treat me rudely, and the fact is, I'm not even that masculine.

people who push gender boundaries certainly do get a lot of crap for it today.

why do you believe that?

its rather ironic that people consider my friend to be a tomboy, because they don't know that she was born male. she's deep stealth and only tells a few very select people - precisely because she doesn't want to call attention to herself. in many ways, she tries to deal with the fact that shes trans as little as possible. shes not out, and she doesn't participate with the queer community.

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blickblocks

You can't boil down all the facets of human behavior to 2 sets of chromosomes. That's ridiculous.

Not conforming to gender is extremely stigmafied. Regardless, the man with gentle feelings and mild manner still identifies as male, and the woman who wishes to be a construction worker still identifies as female. A lot of people don't even identify with either gender (genderqueer and androgynous people).

Now that's just an awful thing to say about a large and diverse group of people. Shame on you.

blickblocks

I'm a trans woman myself, and while my personality is pretty femme, I'm very tomboyish in the things I like (product design, bicycle racing, playing guitar, making things...).

It used to be that some of the feminists of the 70's (from the lesbian separatist movement I think) hated transwomen because they assumed they were aiding in the gender binary. That's pretty easy to prove false if you talk to a lot of younger transwomen.

Oftencold

I took pains in my original response to exclude consideration of the genetically abnormal in my answer. We will therefore move on.


Gender identity is assigned by nature, gender roles are largely assigned by society, and it is a very simple and desirable matter to comply with them.

For example, were I to move to some imagined society as a permanent resident, and in such a society it was the norm form men to wear skirts and makeup and it was the height of normal male behavior to walk with a "swish," I'd adapt to that if I wanted to be a member of that society.

(Do not picture this is you value your sanity.)

This would not change the fact that I am a male, I would be accepting the role that the society I was functioning in demanded. Doing otherwise might well indicate that I felt a need for intense attention.

Again, we have a society with tolerance for a very wide spectrum of behavior. I don't diecide that I am "a woman trapped in a man's body" because I want to help raise the kids, enjoy musicals or like flowers.

If I do make such an announcement, it is little different from the people who become convinced that a limb is not part of their bodies and demand an amputation. In other words, I would have a mental illness related to my body image.
You miss my point. Their unwillingness to conform to such a basic tenant of society, is to my mind an indication of maladjustment.

As for your example I don't have the information to respond. To my thinking there are no "transgendered people," only people who have been surgically mutilated (again leaving aside those unfortunates with genetic abnormalities.) The recent news sensation of the "pregnant man," was not in fact a man, it was a grossly distorted woman pretending to be a man (badly.)


I have been in Alaska, we rather like tomboys.

I would be happy to address the people treating you rudely, I am a very masculine fellow and quite willing to help them learn manners.


I can only claim personal experience. I have encountered a lot of people who at first glance seemed to want to live as the opposite gender, but most seemed to find ways to let it be known that they were doing so. Thus drawing a great deal of attention. Cross dressing for instance, is a form of disguise. Disguise in order to be disguise must be secret.

I concede that I may have met many more who were better able and willing to conceal the practice.

Believe it or not, and I am very sincere in this, I have compassion for your friend, and wish that their situation were otherwise.

Wessexman

Actually it seems that for some transexuals there are basic physiological brain similarities they share with the opposite sex(going on external features.) rather than having a psychological condition so it would be very different to the situtation you describe above.

IJ TRANSGENDER - A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality By J.-N. Zhou, M.A. Hoffmann, L.J. Gooren and D.F. Swaab

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The Wessex society.

“I am an aristocrat. I love liberty; I despise equality.”
John Randolph of Roanoke.