Lightdemon

I don't know that statistic...It would have to depend on the prevalence Schizophrenia versus the prevalence of GID. Which both is hard to pinpoint. Schizophrenia you have a good chance of finding out, because the physical symptoms, but because of SES it might not be reported. Also in GID you cannot be sure. You have transsexuals who live in secret because of social stigmas. Some only cross-dress. Some may have gotten surgery out of country.

Just from browsing the web, I found 0.8% of the US population is afflicted Schizophrenia (2.2 million people). In a 1968 study it showed that 1 in every 100,000 people had some form of GID.

GID.info | Gender Identity Disorder Information
Schizophrenia.com - Schizophrenia Fact and Schizophrenia Statistics

I don't want to use these figures, as I do find them suspect. I'll look for better sources, later.

Yes, as I have already noted. GID can cause mood disorders. This, I believe, has to do with the social pressures that are placed upon the transsexual, the mental stress leading to depression and/or other mood disorders. And NOT because of brain structure or brain activity.

Yep, that's why I think it would be unprofessional to make a conclusion.

I hear the DSM V is coming out. Not sure when, but maybe they'll have this section improved. Hopefully.

I know it's other dissociative disorders too. What I'm pointing out is the difference when GID is the primary diagnoses versus the secondary. If Schizophrenia is the cause of the GID (a symptom) then SRT is inappropriate. In this case, antipsychotic drugs should be the treatment. However, if GID the primary, and depression or bipolar is the secondary, then you can't rule out SRT. Though the comorbidity may make you be more cautious about suggesting SRT. That is why extensive counseling is important. The psychologist must be careful in the diagnosis.

This would depend on how valid their identity is. It may seem that people with GID is delusional, but there are measures to identify femaleness and maleness. There are measures to test their consistency of their beliefs, so that we can know that this isn't a fleeting feeling. The testing is exhaustive. However, I'm not so quite convinced with the brain evaluations of GID. There are a lot of explanations that I find suspect, not just in GID, but for attributing behavior in general. This is because I do not think the brain is the "command center." Believe it or not, I am actually pretty radical in my thinking compared to some of my peers.

As for other identity disorders, it's pragmatically different depending on the type of disorder. Multiple personality? Bipolar? Mania? Dissociative? Each has their own type exhaustive testing. Tests that can rule out other disorders, or it may determine comorbidity.

I can't give you a definitive opinion on BIID, I just don't know enough about it.

SRT would only be appropriate if the client understands the entire procedure. It is likely to be permanent. That there are risks of complications. They must also address the fact that their family and social network must come to terms with it, just as much as they have come to terms with their decision to go thru with SRT. And this is all comes after the exhaustive testing. This would be the requirement for me.

The comment about liposuction and anorexics is a bit absurd... Anorexics don't have any fat to lipo to begin with The behavior that Anorexics exhibit can become debilitating, and may certainly lead to death or serious injury to health. Remember the insanity argument?

After SRT, the client improves in health and mood. After liposuction, the anorexic wants another liposuction, which will cause health to not improve. The anorexic now crosses the line of insanity because of the debilitative behavior. Whereas the transsexual has not.

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Lightdemon

I think I disagree. It isn't that GID has various levels of severity...

It's how far the transsexuals is willing to risk. SRT is risky. Putting on women's clothes are not as risky. Some may be just fine with voice alteration, and not genitalia alteration. In other words, it's an individual decision, which is dependent upon the way they want to live their life versus how they can live their life.

Perhaps they don't want to go thru with the entire surgery because of their family. Or maybe they think they'll lose their job. Or maybe they'll be kicked out of their community. Depending on the individual, these may be things that they cannot live without. This would probably lead one to settle for less, such as living in secret, rather than fully coming out (as they say).

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Felicity

Doesn't that view also fit BIID?

transabled

Hello, Please allow me to join this thread at this late stage. I wouldn't intrude on your site, except that you are discussing BIID, a condition I have been living with since the age of 3 or so, and I'm now past 40. I have been an active advocate in the BIID community (for what there is of it anyway), and have spoken to many of the few researchers in the field, including Dr. Michael First, who as you may know is the chief editor of the DSM.

I run two websites about BIID. One is more of a resource site that lists most of the research and academic publications on the topic, with some comments about each, an FAQ, etc. The other is a multi-authored blog discussing the experience of living with BIID. There are over 650 posts going back 10+ years. I do not say this to brag, simply to give you an idea of where I come from when I answer the questions and comments

Unfortunately, there has been no form of psychotherapy, psychiatry, talk therapy, cognitive-behavioural therapy that has managed to affect BIID. Further, no course of prescribed medication has done a single thing to help with BIID. There hasn't been systematic research into this, but anecdotal evidence gathered from dozens of people who have BIID show that treating BIID like OCD doesn't work (my personal experience of Anafranil 220mg/day for 6 months also agrees). Anti-depressants don't touch BIID. Anti-psychotics either (and it is worth nothing that the medical consensus is that transabled individuals are not psychotic nor dellusional).

The fact is, today, there is only one known solution to make the BIID go away - surgery. But that isn't available to us, no surgeons are willing to do it.

Captain, I'm sorry to contradict you, but your understanding is innacurate. BIID sufferers want to get to one point, and one point only. We want to align our psyche with our bodies. Unfortunately, the psyche isn't responding to any methods, we are therefore left with changing the body. It is not a question of identifying with an outside group, it is a question of internal identity and body-image.

Yeah, but... The only reason that there is no such data is because the research hasn't been done. I'm not saying that there necessarily *is* genetic component, but I'm saying you can't argue that there is NOT. We simply do not have the data to state categorically one way or the other.

For what it's worth, Dr. V.S.Ramachandran (a world reknown neurologist) and Dr. P. McGeoch at the University of San Diego in California have uncovered incongruities in the MRI brain scan of several individuals with BIID that they studied. The research has not been released yet that I am aware of, but having participated in the study myself, I know that they've found something.

This statement shows a misunderstanding both of BIID and of the experience of living with a disability. BIID sufferers want to be whole, and the only way to accomplish that at this point is by removing limbs, doing spinal cord transections, etc. We are not after "illness", nor even "disability". We are after having an impairment. If society makes that impairment disabling, then, we have to put up with that, but becoming "disabled" is not the goal. I made the previous statement assuming that you are aware of the differences between social models and medical models of disabilities. If not, a primer can be found on my site: Impairment vs. Disability - BIID-Info.org

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here... What we gain is a feeling of wholeness, of rightness. When it comes to interacting with other people, we can do it from a position of internal and emotional strength.

Well, not really. We do not seek body alteration. We seek to align our psyche with our body. The fact that the only way to currently do this involves body alteration is nearly irrelevant.

You're mixing and matching stuff here Captain, don't confuse the issue. People who have OCD don't do the things they do because of a need for acceptance. Self-injurers are repeaters of actions. Those of us with BIID who have managed to acquire the impairment they needed saw their anguish and need gone overnight. They state, almost universally that the only thing they regret is to not have done it sooner.

I'll give you that BIID might *look* like other conditions, such as BDD (anorexia for example), but there are some quite distinct differences.

As stated earlier, there is evidence of neurological changes in the brain of people who have BIID. There is also changes in skin conductivity above the required level of amputation/injury and below it - something that apparently can't be faked...

That is, indeed, one of the strongest arguments here "against" BIID. There is no "natural biological state of being an amputee or paraplegic". But then, there are many congenital conditions that have people born paralysed (CP, Spina Bifida), or amputees (technically not amputees, but missing limbs). It is not inconceivable that our brain's body map has something screwy, for whatever reason, that makes us see ourselves the way we do. The fact that "disability is not a natural state" (even if you buy that argument) doesn't make the condition any less real or disabling.

Of course there is a political bend to the research into BIID. Researchers need to be funded, funders have political leanings. Doh! Doesn't mean that research is not appropriate.

If you're serious about reading up on BIID, I invite you to spend some time on biid-info.org. If there are papers there that you can't get your hands on, or papers that have not yet been uploaded, please feel free to contact me directly and I'll pass them on to you.

I invite anyone who is genuinely interested in learning more about BIID to come by my blog, transabled.org Blogging about BIID and read up there, and contact me by email Contact transabled.org Blogging about BIID

Cheers

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Sean
http://biid-info.org - A resource site about BIID, including most available research
http://transabled.org - a multi-author blog about the experience of living with BIID

transabled

Yes, it does, on many levels.

The other thing is that there simply are NO surgical solutions available to us. So those of us who actually would go ahead with surgery if it were available have no option. If you know of a surgeon willing to do a spinal cord transection on me, please tell me, I'll be on the next plane to visit him.

Those who need to be amputee have it "easy", or rather easier. As they *can* stick their legs in wood chipper, blow it off with shotgun or immerse it in dry ice. Those of us, like myself, who needs to be paraplegic have no "safe" way to do it. Stabbing oneself in the back is no option as you could bleed out from severing the spinal artery. Falling backwards on something sharp is far from guarantee, and risks causing a traumatic brain injury, busted kidneys, and not actually cause the required paralysis. Injecting alcohol in the spinal cord is also not particularly efficient, although it may work.

So, think back to before SRS was available, even on the black market. I would imagine that some people did a hatchet job and survived, but...

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Sean
http://biid-info.org - A resource site about BIID, including most available research
http://transabled.org - a multi-author blog about the experience of living with BIID

Lightdemon

transalbed, welcome to DP!

Your interpretation of disabled vs. impairment is very interesting. it makes sense. It's like how a blind person is not disabled, when they have the ability to overcome that disability.

Allow me to ask you a question, as it relates to the discussion that we're having. What do you know about regret from transabled people who have undergone surgery, or those that have purposefully impaired themselves? What are the numbers and statistics on regret? Do some transalbed people regret their decision?

And if you don't mind me asking (as it may be embarrasing), just to follow up, have you "settled for less" as in just sitting in a wheel chair even though your legs work fine? Like Felicity was saying, "passing" as a paraplegic? The same as a transsexual who cross-dresses? *please don't feel obligated to answer, if you feel uncomfortable about it* It's only for my own curiosity, anyway.

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1069

If only there was some way you could just trade bodies with a paraplegic who wants to walk!
I guess that's probably not a new idea to you, though.
Wouldn't it be perfect, if it could happen?
Like, a brain-switch?
Or do you need to be in your own body, but paraplegic?
What about some temporary paralyzing agent such as Botox, but a big dose, in the spine? Or a continuous epidural drip?
Surely there are solutions that don't involve stabbing oneself in the spine or falling on sharp objects.

transabled

Hello Lightdemon, thanks for the welcome

It's not really "my" interpretation of disabled vs. impairment. People much better than I came up with it in the disability rights movements, a "long long time ago"...

First, I need to point out that there has been no concerted study on this topic. It is something I've been bugging many of the research, telling them they should at least talk to these people and quantify the results, but they won't. So we're stuck with anecdotal evidence. This evidence convinces me, but some people might take the approach that it is invalid evidence (no pun intended) because it is not empirical.

That said, I have personally spoken to over a dozen individuals who managed to aquire the impairment they needed (that I could actually verify were real and not just some idiot playing games on the net). I have also heard of another dozen or so individuals that could be "verified". Of these, not a single one says they regret it. Many state that the only regret they have is to not have done it sooner.

There have been rumours of a few individuals who were unhappy. Based on what I heard from those individuals, I'd venture to say that either they did not have BIID, or they didn't do the legwork (pun intended) to learn about themselves enough to make sure this was what they were aiming for (or hadn't readied themselves).

An argument could be made that some of those who said to me it was the right thing, told me that because they didn't want to admit having made such a momentous mistake. I do not deny that possibility, but I've been close to several and know them well enough that I doubt they are fooling themselves.

So, it appears that the overwhelming majority is happy with the result.

Don't worry about embarassing me, I don't embarass easy. And I'm always up for answering questions I feel are genuine

I've not "settled" for less. I live full time as a paraplegic (work, shopping, etc). I have done so for well over 12 years now. In a way, I did it partly to echo the idea of "real life test" in the Benjamin SoC, although mostly, I did it because being in a wheelchair is the only way I can feel someone myself and no feeling like a fish out of water all the time.

Were I offered the opportunity to have a spinal cord transection done in a safe and sterile environment, I would take it. No hesitation. No delays. In fact, a few years ago it got too much for me and I attempted self-injury. You won't be surprised to learn it did not work. So, I live as a wheelchair user, I "pass", to the point of having "fooled" even my old GP for years. My current GP is aware of my BIID. Doing this is the ONLY way for me to keep grips on some level of emotional stability. But it is not enough.

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Sean
http://biid-info.org - A resource site about BIID, including most available research
http://transabled.org - a multi-author blog about the experience of living with BIID

Felicity

Hi Sean-- I actually linked to your site in this thread. I linked to something Marie wrote comparing GID to BIID. Also, I've read your bio on your site. In fact--the question that Lightdemon refers to concerning "passing," I garnered from your bio. I recognize "passing" is not what you would like, but it is what you do at this point.
A quick recap of my life up to date… transabled.org Blogging about BIID

Felicity

I have a question for you too, Sean, since you said you'd be willing to answer some...

If you had the option of repairing the desire to be paraplegic and live comfortably in your body as it is, or being made para, which do you think you would choose?

(Depending on which you choose) Would it make a difference if the one that you chose would be a difficult road to feeling whole?