Thread: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

Originally Posted by Felicity

In a sense, yes.
I don't know what that means. I am a very skeptical Catholic when it comes to miracles and such. I don't know whether I buy the one I linked you to or not. It has some compelling evidence, but ... Luckily, I could even call it a load of horse manure and still be in good standing with the Church. I do believe the Fatima miracles and I also believe that the Shroud of Turin is Jesus' burial cloth. The evidence meets my believability test--which consists of nothing, i just believe it.




The Bible is a means of God's Revelation of Himself--the Word of God is actually Jesus Christ.

But really--isn't this thread supposed to be about Transgendered people? Why do you want to hijack it with challenging my personal faith? Are you interested in becoming Catholic. Feel free to PM me for more info.


You're welcome.

Sorry about the thread drift.

I've said my piece.

Thanks for the invitation to PM you about becoming Catholic.

Originally Posted by Felicity

I'm not exactly expecting my PM box to fill up.



...but I wouldn't mind it.

Don't take it personal. I was raised Lutheran and even that religion didn't jive with me.

Do you have info on Buddhism?

Originally Posted by Felicity

Here's a transgender BIID person's perspective on the similarities.

A comparison between transsexuality and transableism transabled.org Blogging about BIID

Oh, yeah. I get the gist of it just fine. What I meant was that I don't have anything specific on it. Such details like Dopamine on effecting Schizophrenia, or like the enlarged cavities of the ventricles in the brain for Schizophrenics. Or how lithium can be used as a treatment for Bipolar Disorder. Stuff of that nature... I don't know the details for BIID in that regard.

Extreme body modification like excessive tattooing is debilitating socially--and yet, do you consider them perhaps insane?

That would definitely depend on the individuals lifestyle and choices, as well as type of society.

YouTube - returnedhome's Channel

I'm not saying this to be rude, but who is this guy? Who is he citing?

I don't know where he is getting that 20% from but the sources that I'm looking at suggest that it is less than 2%. The quality and type of surgery should also be considered. Female-to-male surgeries are not as great as male-to-female surgery, as noted by 1069 several pages back. One other thing that should also be considered is when the surgery is done, because in the last decade or so, the advancement in surgery technology has improved significantly. One should be aware of the differences in regretting a surgery done in the 70s or 80s, as compared to ones done in the last 10 years.

Since this guy is talking about male-to-female figures, I'll give you an article on male-to-female. I only have it in PDF format, so PM me your email information and I'll send it to you. Or, you can look it up yourself, here is the citation info:

S. KREGE, A. BEX, G. LUÈ MMEN and H. RUÈ BBEN. Male-to-female transsexualism: a technique, results and long-term follow-up in 66 patients. BJU International (2001), 88, 396 ±402.

Right--and as such, The gender "problem" is sometimes a delusion--when the person BELIEVES he/she is of the opposite sex and is trapped in the wrong body. At least 25%! That is a significant percentage!

Yes, but that's people with Schizophrenia, not GID. 25% of people with Schizophrenia may exhibit cross-gender identity. That doesn't mean that 25% of people with GID may have Schizophrenia.

What do you make of the ones whose issue resolve spontaneously?

I don't know. I think it would be very unprofessional to make any conclusions because of the comorbidity.

Perhaps GID is simply a manifestation of a mental disorder.

You're jumping the gun here. You don't have enough information. At least not from what you just cited.

The article I cited demonstrates that at least some of the time--a significant portion of the time--the gender question IS a delusion.

No, again, what you cited was a symptom of schizophrenia. This article brings up the point that the DSM needs to be more descriptive because as it stands it may mis-diagnose GID, when it should have diagnosed Schizophrenia.

It also brings up the point that maybe the client may have both Schizophrenia and GID (where it isn't a symptom of Schizophrenia). You see how hard it is to make that distinction? That is what your article is trying to say. That comorbidity is hard to diagnose. You should re-read the discussion section. Particularly the last three paragraphs.

I don't want you to confuse Schizophrenia for GID.

Hmmmm...there's reason to question that percentage as Walt discusses in his video.

I'll give you one more citation to look up then: Transsexualism. Lancet, 00995355, 9/7/91, Vol. 338, Issue 8767

I also have this article in full text, I can PM you the text if you wish. No need for email for this one.

***Also...For those that are interested in the articles that I was referring to: Feel free to PM me for a copy of the PDF and/or the Full Text.

Originally Posted by Lightdemon

You could be right, I'm not sure about it myself. It's an area that I haven't been sufficiently exposed to in my educational background.

I'd be interested in the Captain's assessment of BIID. After all, my degree in psych is nothing in comparison to the Captain's thousands of years of experience in counseling.

Hundreds of years...not quite thousands. I have been busy with a multitude of mod stuff and RL counseling stuff, but I am enjoying the reading of this thread. Though I have never treated someone with BIID, I am familiar with the disorder. I will attempt to rejoin this debate, over the weekend.

Just some quick information that distinguishes GID from BIID.

The motivations of each are different. GID sufferers are seeking to have consistency between their body and brain. BIID sufferers are seeking to identify, physically, with the disabled.

GID sufferers have been proven to have a genetic component, when post-mortem exams are done. BIID sufferers do not.

GID sufferers want to cease to be ill, and be healthy by enter the non-transsexual world, living as person with the sexuality that matches their brains. BIID sufferers want to cease to be ill, and become ill in a different way, becoming disabled.

GID sufferers gain the ability to interact with others in a way that it is gender-consistent with their brains. They do not gain understanding of the gender they become; they already understand it. They only gain normalcy. BIID sufferers gain understanding of the disabled, being unaware of the experience.

The main component for GID is NOT genetalia alteration. It is gender alteration, which encompasses many aspects. The main component for BIID IS body alteration.

GID has components that are easilty distinguished from other disorders. From post-mortem exams, our understanding of brain chemistry, and new information on the formation of gender, the components of GID are distinct. BIID has components that are fairly indistinguishable from OCD and self-injury. Needs for acceptance, reduction in anxiety, fixated thoughts are all components of other disorders.

Sufferers of GID have a brain-chemical component that makes them a different gender from this standpoint. BIID sufferers are intensely envious of the disabled. There is nothing in brain-chemistry or biology that makes them disabled.

GID sufferers who receive SRT, alter their body to match their brain-chemistry/biology. BIID sufferers who have an amputation, are not biologically pre-disposed in any way to be disabled. This the important distinction, so I will repeat it. GID sufferers are predetermined to have a biolgicial component that makes them a different gender than what their biology presents. BIID sufferes have no predetermined biological component that makes them disabled.

Also, there is may be a political bent to some of the original research into BIID. I must further explore this.

There's some stuff to get you started.

Originally Posted by Lightdemon

Yes, but that's people with Schizophrenia, not GID. 25% of people with Schizophrenia may exhibit cross-gender identity. That doesn't mean that 25% of people with GID may have Schizophrenia.

I don't think it's as simple as just GID or Schizophrenia--I think that was just an example. And 25% is a large number considering the number of people who have Schizophrenia.


This is the part that is interesting and what should give one pause IMO:
Psychiatric Comorbidity of Gender Identity Disorders: A Survey Among Dutch Psychiatrists -- à Campo et al. 160 (7): 1332 -- Am J Psychiatry
In 225 (39%) of the 584 reported cases, gender identity disorder was regarded as the primary diagnosis. For the remaining 359 patients (61%), cross-gender confusion occurred along with other psychiatric disorders, and in 270 (75%) of these 359 cases, it was interpreted as secondary to other psychiatric illnesses.

Nature of Psychiatric Comorbidity
One hundred twenty-nine psychiatrists specified psychiatric comorbidity for their patients with gender identity disorder. Comorbid personality disorders were reported by 102 (79%) of the 129 psychiatrists, major mood disorders by 34 (26%), dissociative disorders by 34 (26%), and psychotic disorders by 31 (24%).

We asked psychiatrists whether they agreed with the DSM-IV heuristic not to rule out other disorders in cases where a gender identity disorder diagnosis is considered. One hundred seventy-seven of the 186 respondents answered this question; 38 (21%) of these respondents indicated that they were not able to make up their mind about this issue. Of the 139 psychiatrists who did express an opinion, 78 (56%) considered this heuristic not to be wise.


It seems that 61% of people that present with GID have some "comorbitity"--and 77% of psychiatrists either can't make up their mind or think SRT would be unwise for those patients.

I don't know. I think it would be very unprofessional to make any conclusions because of the comorbidity.

It seems you also agree.

This seems appropriate.
Our findings also underline the need for articulated diagnostic rules in this area. A nontrivial proportion of our respondents felt that the current DSM-IV gender identity disorder criteria are not strict enough. These respondents indicated that other psychiatric disorders that may explain the cross-gender symptoms should be ruled out before considering a diagnosis of gender identity disorder. There is evidence suggesting that persistent cross-gender identification may occur in psychotic patients. In such cases, the cross-gender confusion appears to be entirely attributable to the misperception of reality that is typical for psychotic disorders (12–18).

Our results, together with anecdotal reports about gender identity disorder misdiagnoses, indicate that it may be fruitful to consider reinstatement of an exclusion criterion that cross-gender symptoms should not be attributable to other psychiatric disorders such as schizophrenia.

No, again, what you cited was a symptom of schizophrenia. This article brings up the point that the DSM needs to be more descriptive because as it stands it may mis-diagnose GID, when it should have diagnosed Schizophrenia.

It's not just Schizophrenia--it's other dissociative disorders also. I can see why you thought I was confused--I had only read what I thought was the abstract...

It also brings up the point that maybe the client may have both Schizophrenia and GID (where it isn't a symptom of Schizophrenia). You see how hard it is to make that distinction? That is what your article is trying to say. That comorbidity is hard to diagnose. You should re-read the discussion section. Particularly the last three paragraphs.

I didn't have the whole article originally--I don't know how that happened, maybe I didn't realize the whole thing was there originally... Anyway, I read the whole thing now..

What I'm getting is that Dissociative Identity Disorders are hard to differentiate from Gender Identity Disorder. My question is: What makes the "gender identity" somehow distinct from a general "identity" disorder at all? And what about "gender" makes surgery on healthy tissue appropriate or medically ethical?

It seems that the conclusion Captain and you are pointing to is that male and female are common "normal" states whereas things like BIID aims for a "dysfunctional" state. Why would it be fine to treat an identity disorder in one instance with complying with the identity perception and not in another case? As one respondent in the study stated, "We don’t do liposuction on anorexics. So why amputate the genitals of these patients?"