Felicity

There has been testing on purported Eucharistic Miracles. Nonetheless--a delusion concerning one's body is not the same thing as Religious Faith. Religious faith is recognized as unprovable either way--that's why it's called "faith." Neither are Catholics cutting off parts of their body due to the persistent belief in God. You were attempting to be rude, and denying it is as pathetic as the original jab.

independent_thinker2002

I'm skeptical that those tests were conclusive as even you call them "purported Eucharistic Miracles".

Maybe these people have "faith" that their gender is wrong. Faith is belief without proof. In spite of proof otherwise, they have faith that they are something else. This is true with flesh/blood. It doesn't matter whether the delusion is about self or an inanimate object. They are both beliefs.

Didn't many Christians, including Catholics, carry on the Jewish tradition of male circumcision?

I was pointing out logical inconsistency. If pointing that out is rude, so be it.

I brought up transubstantiation because it is the same. DNA evidence proves it isn't flesh and blood.

You brought up jfuh.

I wasn't attacking religion. I was attacking your logical inconsistency. As long as no one is hurt, transexuals and the religious can believe whatever they like.

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Felicity

Naw...even the Bible points out that for some, even if a man rises from the dead, some would not believe it. Miracles are not intended to be proof--merely to build up the faithful.



That's the difference (the bold portion).

One can be proven false.



Good point! It was required for the jewish covenant, but in Christianity it is a matter of preference. People tattoo, and pierce also--so what--that is not damaging a body system due to a a belief that can be proven wrong. As I have discussed (which you are conveniently ignoring) even the medical community recognizes that this disorder is often delusional and sometimes mis-treated.


uh-huh.

It's a straw man-apples to oranges comparison and you are insincere.

You're following his pathetic lead.

Chopping of the goods is hurt.

independent_thinker2002

You said tests were performed. Now you back away and say it's a miracle, in spite of the fact that the Eucharist isn't flesh and blood. You can prove that a man is alive.

It can be proven that an unleavened wafer and wine are not flesh and blood.


Ever seen an infected piercing?

Body modifications can and do go wrong.

I know, it's not a delusion if it's what you believe.

I am not following anything. Your need to drag another poster into this is what is pathetic. It's just a weak attempt to play a devisive little game that has been going on for too long. I have no alliance or allegiance to jfuh.

Piercings hurt. Tattoos hurt. Breast implants hurt. Branding hurts. Scarrification hurts. All of these things heal. So does sex reassignment surgery. You have a right to "hurt" yourself.

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Tucker Case

Felicity, I'm curious about somehting, do you actually believe that the Eucharist and the wine become Jesus' flesh and blood?

I've always assumed (I was raised Catholic) that it was a symbolic thing where eating of the same meal means that something that was once it's own entity has become a part of all of us and thus there is a small part of all of us in everyone.

Not to derail. You can answer me by PM if you'd like.

Felicity

Do you know how to google Eucharistic Miracle? Jeesh.

Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano



And the belief is not dependent upon such proof. Religious faith is chosen--not a compulsion (generally--although some mental disorders do manifest with obsessive religious components ). Is transsexuality chosen?




I know--I mentioned extraordinary body modification in a prior post. Why don't you read my position before you attack?







No...but you're acting like him.


Amputation?

Felicity

Both, and.

I will PM you the Catechism portion that addresses it.

Lightdemon

I'm not sure I have a definite opinion about BIID. I haven't really read extensively on this yet. As I understand it, this disorder is still fairly new, or at least the researches haven't offered much explanation of this disorder.

I'm glad you brought it up though, it most certainly have to do with what we're talking about.

I have mixed feelings about it. In one sense, it's like abortion. What I mean is when women conduct abortions on themselves because legal abortion is not available for them. Such as Mr Bondy in the story you linked. He seeked out a doctor in TJ to do the operation, but this could have been avoided if proper surgery was made legal. Also, a likely scenario is where people might plan out accidents and end up killing themselves instead of just amputating themselves. This crosses the line of insanity, however it may (as in not definitely) have been avoided, if surgery was made legal.

On the other hand, I agree that this would in fact be cutting healthy flesh, and may actually feed into the disorder. This would also fit under the category of insanity because we have to factor in debilitation. However, it isn't complete insanity, because strictly speaking insanity constitutes a threat (either to themselves or to other people) which is why we institutionalize the insane. Those with BIID do not necessarily carry that same threat to themselves. But the debilitation factor should be considered.

The appropriate thing in my mind is to give extensive counseling to the client. And that's the farthest I can go, given that I do not have enough information about the disorder.

I think there is a difference between normalization and tolerance. I don't think anyone is going to say that Transsexualism is normal, that would just be a lie. I'm very certain that transsexuals understand that they are different, but despite that they can still live a "normal" life albeit with a social handicap.

What I'm saying is that people shouldn't view it as normal, but they shouldn't use that non-normalcy to discriminate. Myself being a minority, I wouldn't want my non-normalcy to dictate the way I have to lead my life.

Just one instance and it shoots my +95% satisfied reports to hell? I'm sorry, but I don't think that's possible.

The study that I've linked earlier, showed only 1-2% of the people regretting their sex change operation. This is indication that the operation is extremely successful in achieving satisfaction.

Statistically speaking, you will need to find at least 10% of the sample finding it unsatisfactory, and consistently find that 10% in all sampling. And this would only achieve statistical doubt, it still wouldn't show that the majority of the people will regret the operation.

I'm sorry Felicity, but you need to do more than just find one instance. Statistically speaking, it would be irrelevant.

I'm interested in looking at the Olsen and Möller article. Do you have the full article? What I want to see is what they wrote in the conclusion/discussion part of their report.

The DSM isn't pointing that out (emotional disturbance). The DSM recognizes that transsexuals identify with the opposite gender. The DSM also recognizes that trannsexuals know that they are physically a man or a woman.

And while this article is very interesting, it is about Schizophrenia, not specifically about Transsexualism. It cites 25% of people with Schizophrenia to have cross-gender identification, which is what they called "comorbidity" (a fancy word for having multiple disorders). It also cites that because of comorbidity it makes it extremely difficult for the psychologist to diagnose the client.

It cites further that antipsychotic drugs helped that 25% by eliminating cross-gender identity, but they conclude that it was because they had Schizophrenia, not GID specifically. It's a good article. This would explain why sex change operations do not always have satisfactory results for all clients. Perhaps it was because they never had GID in the first place, instead they had Schizophrenia.

Again, you're just not accepting the persons choice of identity. You are only calling it a delusion because you do not accept their choice.

I'm sorry Felicity, but +95% satisfaction is a huge number. I'm surprised you're not sold by it...

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faminedynasty

Actually I brought it up.
And again, counseling seems to be completely useless to BIID sufferers because it, like gender identity disorder, is linked to physical differences in the brain. And again, it seems that if the brain and the body do not match physically, the patient will either suffer in anguish their entire life or alter their body. And to my mind the latter seems to be the lesser harm.

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Lightdemon

You could be right, I'm not sure about it myself. It's an area that I haven't been sufficiently exposed to in my educational background.

I'd be interested in the Captain's assessment of BIID. After all, my degree in psych is nothing in comparison to the Captain's thousands of years of experience in counseling.

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