View Poll Results: I personally feel transgender individuals are...

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  • Mentally disturbed.

    39 39.00%
  • Slightly irregular.

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  • Perfectly normal.

    21 21.00%
  • Progressive.

    1 1.00%
  • Self-Actualized.

    12 12.00%
  • Other (specify).

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Thread: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    It's funny how you can call people you don't understand delusional but you don't like it in return. I am just pointing out the inconsistency in your argument. You want to look to DNA to prove delusion in one instance, but not in another. I'm not being bigoted. You are free to believe whatever you like. Just remember, if you object to being called delusional, you probably shouldn't bandy around that term for others. .
    There has been testing on purported Eucharistic Miracles. Nonetheless--a delusion concerning one's body is not the same thing as Religious Faith. Religious faith is recognized as unprovable either way--that's why it's called "faith." Neither are Catholics cutting off parts of their body due to the persistent belief in God. You were attempting to be rude, and denying it is as pathetic as the original jab.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    There has been testing on purported Eucharistic Miracles.
    I'm skeptical that those tests were conclusive as even you call them "purported Eucharistic Miracles".

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Nonetheless--a delusion concerning one's body is not the same thing as Religious Faith. Religious faith is recognized as unprovable either way--that's why it's called "faith."
    Maybe these people have "faith" that their gender is wrong. Faith is belief without proof. In spite of proof otherwise, they have faith that they are something else. This is true with flesh/blood. It doesn't matter whether the delusion is about self or an inanimate object. They are both beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Neither are Catholics cutting off parts of their body due to the persistent belief in God.
    Didn't many Christians, including Catholics, carry on the Jewish tradition of male circumcision?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    You were attempting to be rude, and denying it is as pathetic as the original jab.
    I was pointing out logical inconsistency. If pointing that out is rude, so be it.

    I brought up transubstantiation because it is the same. DNA evidence proves it isn't flesh and blood.

    You brought up jfuh.

    I wasn't attacking religion. I was attacking your logical inconsistency. As long as no one is hurt, transexuals and the religious can believe whatever they like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    I'm skeptical that those tests were conclusive as even you call them "purported Eucharistic Miracles".
    Naw...even the Bible points out that for some, even if a man rises from the dead, some would not believe it. Miracles are not intended to be proof--merely to build up the faithful.



    Maybe these people have "faith" that their gender is wrong. Faith is belief without proof. In spite of proof otherwise, they have faith that they are something else.
    That's the difference (the bold portion).

    This is true with flesh/blood. It doesn't matter whether the delusion is about self or an inanimate object. They are both beliefs.
    One can be proven false.



    Didn't many Christians, including Catholics, carry on the Jewish tradition of male circumcision?
    Good point! It was required for the jewish covenant, but in Christianity it is a matter of preference. People tattoo, and pierce also--so what--that is not damaging a body system due to a a belief that can be proven wrong. As I have discussed (which you are conveniently ignoring) even the medical community recognizes that this disorder is often delusional and sometimes mis-treated.


    I was pointing out logical inconsistency. If pointing that out is rude, so be it.
    uh-huh.

    I brought up transubstantiation because it is the same. DNA evidence proves it isn't flesh and blood.
    It's a straw man-apples to oranges comparison and you are insincere.

    You brought up jfuh.
    You're following his pathetic lead.

    I wasn't attacking religion. I was attacking your logical inconsistency. As long as no one is hurt, transexuals and the religious can believe whatever they like.
    Chopping of the goods is hurt.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Naw...even the Bible points out that for some, even if a man rises from the dead, some would not believe it. Miracles are not intended to be proof--merely to build up the faithful.
    You said tests were performed. Now you back away and say it's a miracle, in spite of the fact that the Eucharist isn't flesh and blood. You can prove that a man is alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    That's the difference (the bold portion).

    One can be proven false.
    It can be proven that an unleavened wafer and wine are not flesh and blood.


    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Good point! It was required for the jewish covenant, but in Christianity it is a matter of preference. People tattoo, and pierce also--so what--that is not damaging a body system due to a a belief that can be proven wrong. As I have discussed (which you are conveniently ignoring) even the medical community recognizes that this disorder is often delusional and sometimes mis-treated.
    Ever seen an infected piercing?

    Body modifications can and do go wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    It's a straw man-apples to oranges comparison and you are insincere.
    I know, it's not a delusion if it's what you believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    You're following his pathetic lead.
    I am not following anything. Your need to drag another poster into this is what is pathetic. It's just a weak attempt to play a devisive little game that has been going on for too long. I have no alliance or allegiance to jfuh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Chopping of the goods is hurt.
    Piercings hurt. Tattoos hurt. Breast implants hurt. Branding hurts. Scarrification hurts. All of these things heal. So does sex reassignment surgery. You have a right to "hurt" yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry
    The Amish are light-years ahead of the rest of the human race.



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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Felicity, I'm curious about somehting, do you actually believe that the Eucharist and the wine become Jesus' flesh and blood?

    I've always assumed (I was raised Catholic) that it was a symbolic thing where eating of the same meal means that something that was once it's own entity has become a part of all of us and thus there is a small part of all of us in everyone.

    Not to derail. You can answer me by PM if you'd like.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    You said tests were performed. Now you back away and say it's a miracle, in spite of the fact that the Eucharist isn't flesh and blood. You can prove that a man is alive.
    Do you know how to google Eucharistic Miracle? Jeesh.

    Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano



    It can be proven that an unleavened wafer and wine are not flesh and blood.
    And the belief is not dependent upon such proof. Religious faith is chosen--not a compulsion (generally--although some mental disorders do manifest with obsessive religious components ). Is transsexuality chosen?




    Ever seen an infected piercing?

    Body modifications can and do go wrong.
    I know--I mentioned extraordinary body modification in a prior post. Why don't you read my position before you attack?







    I am not following anything. Your need to drag another poster into this is what is pathetic. It's just a weak attempt to play a devisive little game that has been going on for too long. I have no alliance or allegiance to jfuh.
    No...but you're acting like him.


    Piercings hurt. Tattoos hurt. Breast implants hurt. Branding hurts. Scarrification hurts. All of these things heal. So does sex reassignment surgery. You have a right to "hurt" yourself.
    Amputation?

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Felicity, I'm curious about somehting, do you actually believe that the Eucharist and the wine become Jesus' flesh and blood?

    I've always assumed (I was raised Catholic) that it was a symbolic thing where eating of the same meal means that something that was once it's own entity has become a part of all of us and thus there is a small part of all of us in everyone.

    Not to derail. You can answer me by PM if you'd like.
    Both, and.

    I will PM you the Catechism portion that addresses it.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Okay--the debilitating comment is accurate. I mean, one can't walk on all fours in public. But what about the person who views themselves as legless and want those appendages removed to feel more "right" in their body? Example:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/22/he...n=&oref=slogin


    Would you support cutting off whatever healthy tissue if one "feels" it's appropriate?
    I'm not sure I have a definite opinion about BIID. I haven't really read extensively on this yet. As I understand it, this disorder is still fairly new, or at least the researches haven't offered much explanation of this disorder.

    I'm glad you brought it up though, it most certainly have to do with what we're talking about.

    I have mixed feelings about it. In one sense, it's like abortion. What I mean is when women conduct abortions on themselves because legal abortion is not available for them. Such as Mr Bondy in the story you linked. He seeked out a doctor in TJ to do the operation, but this could have been avoided if proper surgery was made legal. Also, a likely scenario is where people might plan out accidents and end up killing themselves instead of just amputating themselves. This crosses the line of insanity, however it may (as in not definitely) have been avoided, if surgery was made legal.

    On the other hand, I agree that this would in fact be cutting healthy flesh, and may actually feed into the disorder. This would also fit under the category of insanity because we have to factor in debilitation. However, it isn't complete insanity, because strictly speaking insanity constitutes a threat (either to themselves or to other people) which is why we institutionalize the insane. Those with BIID do not necessarily carry that same threat to themselves. But the debilitation factor should be considered.

    The appropriate thing in my mind is to give extensive counseling to the client. And that's the farthest I can go, given that I do not have enough information about the disorder.

    I am against the normalising of aberrant perceptions.
    I think there is a difference between normalization and tolerance. I don't think anyone is going to say that Transsexualism is normal, that would just be a lie. I'm very certain that transsexuals understand that they are different, but despite that they can still live a "normal" life albeit with a social handicap.

    What I'm saying is that people shouldn't view it as normal, but they shouldn't use that non-normalcy to discriminate. Myself being a minority, I wouldn't want my non-normalcy to dictate the way I have to lead my life.

    talloulou has cast doubt on that conclusion--and all I have to do is find one transgender surgery recipient to regret the choice and your "treatment" is shot to hell.
    Just one instance and it shoots my +95% satisfied reports to hell? I'm sorry, but I don't think that's possible.

    The study that I've linked earlier, showed only 1-2% of the people regretting their sex change operation. This is indication that the operation is extremely successful in achieving satisfaction.

    Statistically speaking, you will need to find at least 10% of the sample finding it unsatisfactory, and consistently find that 10% in all sampling. And this would only achieve statistical doubt, it still wouldn't show that the majority of the people will regret the operation.

    I'm sorry Felicity, but you need to do more than just find one instance. Statistically speaking, it would be irrelevant.

    I'm interested in looking at the Olsen and Möller article. Do you have the full article? What I want to see is what they wrote in the conclusion/discussion part of their report.

    Psychiatric Comorbidity of Gender Identity Disorders: A Survey Among Dutch Psychiatrists -- à Campo et al. 160 (7): 1332 -- Am J Psychiatry
    This case suggests that cross-gender delusions in patients with schizophrenia may mimic the persistent and stable cross-gender identification seen in patients with gender identity disorder. The psychiatric literature offers several anecdotal reports of cases in which cross-gender identification disappeared when patients were treated with antipsychotic medication (12–17). There are also case descriptions of patients whose cross-gender identification returned after antipsychotic medication was stopped (18). Finally, there are reports of remission of gender identity disorder in nonpsychotic, nonmedicated adult patients (19). The supporting text for the DSM-IV gender identity disorder criteria assumes that a patient with genuine gender identity disorder "feels like a member of the other sex rather than truly believes that he or she is a member of the other sex" (p. 537). In many cases, this clinical heuristic might be useful, but the example cited here suggests that it sometimes fails.

    There is a distinct difference between "feeling" and "believing"--one is an emotional disturbance, and the other is delusional.
    The DSM isn't pointing that out (emotional disturbance). The DSM recognizes that transsexuals identify with the opposite gender. The DSM also recognizes that trannsexuals know that they are physically a man or a woman.

    And while this article is very interesting, it is about Schizophrenia, not specifically about Transsexualism. It cites 25% of people with Schizophrenia to have cross-gender identification, which is what they called "comorbidity" (a fancy word for having multiple disorders). It also cites that because of comorbidity it makes it extremely difficult for the psychologist to diagnose the client.

    It cites further that antipsychotic drugs helped that 25% by eliminating cross-gender identity, but they conclude that it was because they had Schizophrenia, not GID specifically. It's a good article. This would explain why sex change operations do not always have satisfactory results for all clients. Perhaps it was because they never had GID in the first place, instead they had Schizophrenia.

    If he really thinks (not feels like) he is a woman, that is a delusion and should be treated with medication, not surgery.
    Again, you're just not accepting the persons choice of identity. You are only calling it a delusion because you do not accept their choice.

    I think you are too sold on letting people decide whatever they want to do to themselves when there is evidence that a permanent "solution" might bring about other problems, or no solution at all. To me, it's like letting the amputee fetishist cut off his legs.
    I'm sorry Felicity, but +95% satisfaction is a huge number. I'm surprised you're not sold by it...
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    I'm glad you brought it up though, it most certainly have to do with what we're talking about.
    The appropriate thing in my mind is to give extensive counseling to the client.
    Actually I brought it up.
    And again, counseling seems to be completely useless to BIID sufferers because it, like gender identity disorder, is linked to physical differences in the brain. And again, it seems that if the brain and the body do not match physically, the patient will either suffer in anguish their entire life or alter their body. And to my mind the latter seems to be the lesser harm.
    "We may have destroyed this country, but we got rich doing it!" --The GOP
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Actually I brought it up.
    And again, counseling seems to be completely useless to BIID sufferers because it, like gender identity disorder, is linked to physical differences in the brain. And again, it seems that if the brain and the body do not match physically, the patient will either suffer in anguish their entire life or alter their body. And to my mind the latter seems to be the lesser harm.
    You could be right, I'm not sure about it myself. It's an area that I haven't been sufficiently exposed to in my educational background.

    I'd be interested in the Captain's assessment of BIID. After all, my degree in psych is nothing in comparison to the Captain's thousands of years of experience in counseling.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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