View Poll Results: I personally feel transgender individuals are...

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  • Mentally disturbed.

    39 39.00%
  • Slightly irregular.

    15 15.00%
  • Perfectly normal.

    21 21.00%
  • Progressive.

    1 1.00%
  • Self-Actualized.

    12 12.00%
  • Other (specify).

    12 12.00%
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Thread: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    And a healthy working mind that is working as it is supposed to has no defect either. Again, why is it that you place the defect in the mind? Why can it not be that the incompatibility lies in the body and not the mind?
    Because if the genitals are healthy and working the problem lies in the minds refusal to accept what is there. Assuming there's nothing wrong with the genitals chopping them off does nothing but cater to the dysphoria in the mind that holds ill feelings towards them.

    Why do you only accept the argument from one side and not the other? I don't understand... You are quick to say that the defect is in the mind because the sex organs are healthy. Yet can you show that the mind, brain, nervous tissue, are unhealthy? Can you show a section of the brain that is not operating properly? Can you show which lobe transsexualism is caused?

    What do you base that the mind is unhealthy? Can you not use that same argument the other way around? Such as: I see a perfectly normal average brain therefore the defect must be in the sex organs. Is this not the same type of reasoning that you are using to base your judgment?
    Most transsexuals have a host of psychological issues and in most cases those continue on even post op.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Some. I have training as a Psychiatric Technician and as a Certified Nursing Assistant. No-- that's nothing that makes me able to diagnose or treat people, but who needs a degree in medicine to recognize the objective fact of DNA as compared to subjective emotional disturbances concerning one's self-image?
    I know a Psychiatric Technician doesn't diagnose but, I would think you might have more exposure to this, as in knowing it is a very real condition. This "disorder" is so much more than simply about "self image". With your training you should know this. Or have you been taught, or exposed to, this and personally don't accept it as real?
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Why would one false belief be different from another? Your comparing me to another poster does not address the point, but rather deflects. If you have respect for me, please explain the difference between two false beliefs about oneself.
    Okay, fair enough, I apologize. And I'll substantiate.

    Insanity; Here is a general textbook definition:

    A generally non-medical term referring to mental illnesses which are so severe and debilitating that they prevent a person from functioning in a lawful, socially acceptable manner. The term is more common in the field of law.
    A person who believes he is a horse, and acts like a horse, would likely be categorized as insane because it would be critically debilitating in all societies.

    A transsexual would not be considered insane because they do not exhibit debilitating behavior. This may depend on society, but for our purposes, in the US their disorder isn't really socially unacceptable, at least not to the point of debilitating.

    THAT is the difference. THAT is why the comparison is inappropriate. When you make this comparison you are saying that the transsexual is insane, or equating to it. While they do have a disorder, they are not insane, and this needs to be understood.

    That's a different issue. That issue would be determining whether the benefit outweighs the cost. In some cases, feeding a delusion might be the best course to effect the most possible outcome. HOWEVER, to say it is the correct course of action--to say that it is "corrective" or "sex reassignment"--to claim that it is "fixing" or "curing" or "making right" that which "should" be some other way, is simply wrong. It is an attempt to somehow normalize a mental disorder to something it is not--and it is an attempt to elevate a surgical procedure on healthy tissue that is essentially mutilation of properly functioning organs to a necessary and appropriate treatment. It is not.
    I don't understand then...Why are you making such a big fuss about it? Going through the trouble of saying that SRT doesn't address the problem?

    The goal is to help, which it clearly does. It may not make a woman a man, but the quality of life is improved. Was that not what the transsexual and psychologist set out to achieve?

    And please, stop saying that it feeds into the delusion, because it isn't a delusion. No one can decide your identity. Only the individual can do that. Regardless of what your DNA says.

    I don't understand your analogy.
    I was trying to illustrate a scenario where the psychologist doesn't take the clients word. If they don't, they may as well make up stuff as they go along. My point being that you cannot tell the transsexual that he is a man even though he thinks he's a woman. A psychologist should take his word for it, and to confirm it a list of diagnostic tests can find the consistency of his beliefs.

    I'm not arguing whether or not they can do it--or that they shouldn't be allowed to modify their bodies as such. My point is that it is feeding a delusion and it should be recognized as such. If they still want to choose to do it....that's a different debate concerning medical ethics.
    That is only because you keep rejecting their chosen identity. It's not up to you to decide what anybody's identity is. DNA doesn't decide it either. It may decide what sex you will be, whether you'll have one gonad or both, but not your identity.

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    ... people who have an identifiable birth defect where they are a female genetically, but sprout a penis. It's a genetic defect.
    The point being that gender identity can be chosen. Thus it isn't decided by DNA.

    There are things we learn because of anomalies. Like Phineas Gage. We found out critical information about the brain, specifically the frontal lobe and what it does for human behavior. We are able to compare these anomalies with the norm and draw up conclusions. From the XX male anomalies, we can conclude that gender identity can be chosen. Meaning that it is possible for transsexuals to choose their identity also. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

    Yes--delusions are by definition persistent.

    At that point it is a full blown delusion.
    Again, this is only because you repeatedly reject their chosen identity.

    If a person has a genetic defect that affects the expression of the characteristics of gender to some neutral male/female hybrid, then by all means reconstruction is called for on the affected organs.

    An individual's desire is different from an individual's genetic malformation.
    Yes, they are different things. But that doesn't mean we cannot draw conclusions from what we find. Again, we find critical information about how the brain works, about human behavior, by looking at anomalies. Just because they are different things, doesn't mean that it may not help the other.

    Going back to Phantom Limb. Another anomaly. Again it is useful in helping us to explain, analyze, and interpret other disorders such as Transsexualism.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    I know a Psychiatric Technician doesn't diagnose but, I would think you might have more exposure to this, as in knowing it is a very real condition. This "disorder" is so much more than simply about "self image". With your training you should know this. Or have you been taught, or exposed to, this and personally don't accept it as real?
    No, Felicity does understand that this condition is real. She just thinks that transsexualism is based on a delusion.

    I think this is where both of us have the biggest disagreement. To me it is a disorder, where the mind does not reconcile with the body. Unlike a delusion, where it assumes that the problem lies inside the mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    No, Felicity does understand that this condition is real. She just thinks that transsexualism is based on a delusion.

    I think this is where both of us have the biggest disagreement. To me it is a disorder, where the mind does not reconcile with the body. Unlike a delusion, where it assumes that the problem lies inside the mind.
    I think calling it a delusion covers her distaste for the reality she can't admit.
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Because if the genitals are healthy and working the problem lies in the minds refusal to accept what is there. Assuming there's nothing wrong with the genitals chopping them off does nothing but cater to the dysphoria in the mind that holds ill feelings towards them.
    This is also begging the question:

    The false premise here is that the mind is unhealthy.

    I questioned your conclusion, which was "since the genitals are healthy, therefore the mind must be the problem."

    I presented the same reasoning except in reverse: "Since the mind is healthy, therefore the body must be the problem."

    You gave a response that repeated the information that I questioned; you ignored that I questioned your premise. You provided no further information to substantiate your premise that the mind is unhealthy.

    What you need to do is show why the mind is unhealthy.

    Most transsexuals have a host of psychological issues and in most cases those continue on even post op.
    Yes. Such as depression and mood disorders.

    This does not lend credit to your argument that the problem started with an unhealthy mind. Because most likely, their transsexualism led to the mood disorders. Most likely because societies frown upon transsexualism. An argument easily made for homosexuals who live in secret, because they too have a high probability in getting depression and other mood disorders.
    Last edited by Lightdemon; 10-23-08 at 11:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    I think calling it a delusion covers her distaste for the reality she can't admit.
    I'm not sensing distaste from her.

    For her, I think the problem is logistical. She doesn't accept their choice in identity, therefore the treatment cannot possibly be treating the problem. In other words, she's questioning the treatment.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    There are undoubtably countless people in this world who feel from birth that they are born into the wrong body, and they will be miserable so long as they are trapped. The fact that so many of you are so disturbed by such a though merely enforces the notion that they have no real choice in feeling that way. There is a very thin line between genders. And the countless people who suffer the unenviable fate of being born with both male and female genitalia indicate that your feel-good "a man is a man and a woman is a woman and their aint nothin in-goddamn-between" talk is plainly false. It is scientifically incorrect. And it seems obvious to me that a person can be born in a male body with a female mind or vice versa. I suppose you could call that a mental disorder if you want. Or is it the body that is wrong and the brain that is right? Think what you will, but for godsakes try to understand that these people generally have no choice about feeling this way. Could you will yourself to feel that way? Is that honestly what you think these people are doing?

    This isn't exactly the same, but I spoke to a gentleman on the crisis line not long ago who said he was suffering from something called BIID. I managed to persuade him (for now) not to cut off his right hand with a circular saw which is an urge he has been completely overwhelmed by for years and which he assured me he eventually carry out. I looked up BIID since and it's pretty amazing. Its sufferers are completely tormented by the feeling that part of their body does not belong. Most interestingly is the fact that psychotherapy is completely innefective. As is treatment with drugs. Psychiatry seemingly offers no remedy. The only thing that makes these people feel better is severing the limb their brain tells them is not rightfully a part of them. When they've completed this, sufferers generally feel the best that they have ever felt in their life. Like "gender identity disorder" the medical community is leaning towards the consensus that BIID is linked to physical differences in the brain rather than a psychological condition, or what we may generally call insanity. My general point of this rant is that if the brain (PHYSICALLY) does not match the body, either the person will suffer horrific mental anguish, or will alter the body.
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    A person who believes he is a horse, and acts like a horse, would likely be categorized as insane because it would be critically debilitating in all societies.
    Okay--the debilitating comment is accurate. I mean, one can't walk on all fours in public. But what about the person who views themselves as legless and want those appendages removed to feel more "right" in their body? Example:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/22/he...n=&oref=slogin


    Would you support cutting off whatever healthy tissue if one "feels" it's appropriate?




    I don't understand then...Why are you making such a big fuss about it? Going through the trouble of saying that SRT doesn't address the problem?
    I am against the normalising of aberrant perceptions. And also, I do not think it is an ethical practice for doctors to be complicit in radically altering the human body for non-medically necessary reasons.

    The goal is to help, which it clearly does.
    talloulou has cast doubt on that conclusion--and all I have to do is find one transgender surgery recipient to regret the choice and your "treatment" is shot to hell.

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    And please, stop saying that it feeds into the delusion, because it isn't a delusion. No one can decide your identity. Only the individual can do that. Regardless of what your DNA says.
    Psychiatric Comorbidity of Gender Identity Disorders: A Survey Among Dutch Psychiatrists -- Campo et al. 160 (7): 1332 -- Am J Psychiatry
    This case suggests that cross-gender delusions in patients with schizophrenia may mimic the persistent and stable cross-gender identification seen in patients with gender identity disorder. The psychiatric literature offers several anecdotal reports of cases in which cross-gender identification disappeared when patients were treated with antipsychotic medication (1217). There are also case descriptions of patients whose cross-gender identification returned after antipsychotic medication was stopped (18). Finally, there are reports of remission of gender identity disorder in nonpsychotic, nonmedicated adult patients (19). The supporting text for the DSM-IV gender identity disorder criteria assumes that a patient with genuine gender identity disorder "feels like a member of the other sex rather than truly believes that he or she is a member of the other sex" (p. 537). In many cases, this clinical heuristic might be useful, but the example cited here suggests that it sometimes fails.


    There is a distinct difference between "feeling" and "believing"--one is an emotional disturbance, and the other is delusional.


    I was trying to illustrate a scenario where the psychologist doesn't take the clients word. If they don't, they may as well make up stuff as they go along. My point being that you cannot tell the transsexual that he is a man even though he thinks he's a woman. A psychologist should take his word for it, and to confirm it a list of diagnostic tests can find the consistency of his beliefs.
    If he really thinks (not feels like) he is a woman, that is a delusion and should be treated with medication, not surgery.


    From the XX male anomalies, we can conclude that gender identity can be chosen. Meaning that it is possible for transsexuals to choose their identity also. Do you understand what I'm getting at?
    I think you are too sold on letting people decide whatever they want to do to themselves when there is evidence that a permanent "solution" might bring about other problems, or no solution at all. To me, it's like letting the amputee fetishist cut off his legs.
    Last edited by Felicity; 10-24-08 at 04:59 AM.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Rather than baiting me, why don't you just follow jfuh's lead and tell me what name you would like me to utilize in responding to your pointless and bigoted comment. I'd be happy to oblige with a well-deserved insult.
    It's funny how you can call people you don't understand delusional but you don't like it in return. I am just pointing out the inconsistency in your argument. You want to look to DNA to prove delusion in one instance, but not in another. I'm not being bigoted. You are free to believe whatever you like. Just remember, if you object to being called delusional, you probably shouldn't bandy around that term for others. Live and let live.

    I'm not going to pretend that I understand transexuality. I don't understand what makes those people feel the way that they do. If it doesn't hurt anyone, I don't need to understand it. I've seen arguments in this thread that people are mutilating perfectly good flesh. I don't see the outrage of people injecting Botulism into their perfectly good fleshy foreheads.
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