View Poll Results: I personally feel transgender individuals are...

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  • Mentally disturbed.

    39 39.00%
  • Slightly irregular.

    15 15.00%
  • Perfectly normal.

    21 21.00%
  • Progressive.

    1 1.00%
  • Self-Actualized.

    12 12.00%
  • Other (specify).

    12 12.00%
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Thread: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

  1. #411
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    If you believe you are a horse, trapped in a human body, your feeling that way isn't wrong, but it is a delusion!
    Please don't take a page from Jamesrage's book. I have too much respect for you.

    THE DNA determines sex--NOT the mind or the brain or society...you are what you are. Proclivities and preferences be damned.

    "feelings" are one thing--there isn't a "right feeling" or a "wrong feeling"--they are the realm of emotions and that is entirely subjective. What one "believes" can be tested against objective fact. One can test the "belief" that he/she is a female against the DNA (and generally genitals and sex organs). If the belief and the DNA do not coincide...That's a delusion.

    The underlying problem is that you are building your argument upon "feelings"--feelings shift with the shifting sands and leave one with no clear direction and nothing to validate what their opinion is at the moment.

    This is not to say a person who "feels" in the wrong skin can't try to change the skin, but as jallman kept saying--it is an illusion (although I believe he called it "gender pretend").
    Nonetheless, The surgery still has a positive impact on the individual. The fact that they can never actually become a male, or a female, is irrelevant. They are still benefiting from the treatment. And isn't this what this is all about? Treatment?

    And yes, I have to base my argument on their feelings. How else does a psychologist help a client? It's as if Freud is telling his client,
    "No, you are afraid of your Father..."
    "I'm not so sure Dr. Freud...I haven't even seen my father before."

    Of course I'm using hyperbole. If transsexuals have gone thru extensive counseling, then I would be convinced that the clinician would know if the individual was actually delusional or not, depending on how consistent the client is. I mean it isn't a "shifting sands" type thing. Transsexuals have this "in the wrong skin" feeling all of their lives. This isn't the fleeting -type of feeling that you are referring to.
    Last edited by Lightdemon; 10-23-08 at 05:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

  2. #412
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    DNA
    Why are we going over this again? I thought we already had discussed XX males. You conceded that people can choose their gender identity.

    Subjective vs. Objective
    Is it subjective when people believe they are men trapped in a woman's body? Even though they have consistently shown this feeling through extensive counseling?

    At some point, it's no longer a feeling. At some point, they know they are a man trapped in a woman's body.

    DNA contradicting the desire to have certain sex organs and still BELIEVING one is not the sex the DNA indicates = delusional brain processes.
    Fallacy. Begging the question.

    Again you already conceded the point about choice in selecting gender identity. DNA does not dictate your choice. DNA just determines whether you'll have a penis or vagina.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

  3. #413
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    If you believe you are a horse, trapped in a human body, your feeling that way isn't wrong, but it is a delusion!

    THE DNA determines sex--NOT the mind or the brain or society...you are what you are. Proclivities and preferences be damned.
    As it relates to psychiatry, delusional is defined as: a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

    In your example you would be pretty safe since the possibility of horse dna being in our dna would be pretty impossible... today. But, it is not out of reach to accept that as we are developing in the womb something could go wrong that would create a male "mind", for lack of a more precise scientific word, inside a female body and visa versa. After all, scientists believe that that is what happens to create homosexuals, bi-sexuals, hermaphrodites , etc.

    Not all of these people are crazy. Whatever the correct diagnosis would be, I don't believe "delusional" would be it. Keep in mind this field is learning more about these problems all the time. There used to be a time when people thought women acting crazy once a month were... well... crazy. Do try to keep an open mind.
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  4. #414
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Anyone ever do a DNA test on the wafer and wine?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry
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  5. #415
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Well there's tons of evidence which suggests that once your "chunk of meat" is completely messed up your ability to think and perceive is messed up as well.
    So then your ignoring MY POST where I said you needed the meat to have the consciousness. Ok, all done, clearly you can't keep a half dozen conversations going at once where you deny reality.

    Good luck dealing with this issue when its "forced on you" because its not going away and likely to get even more prevalent as time goes on.

  6. #416
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    Please don't take a page from Jamesrage's book. I have too much respect for you.
    Why would one false belief be different from another? Your comparing me to another poster does not address the point, but rather deflects. If you have respect for me, please explain the difference between two false beliefs about oneself.



    Nonetheless, The surgery still has a positive impact on the individual. The fact that they can never actually become a male, or a female, is irrelevant. They are still benefiting from the treatment. And isn't this what this is all about? Treatment?
    That's a different issue. That issue would be determining whether the benefit outweighs the cost. In some cases, feeding a delusion might be the best course to effect the most possible outcome. HOWEVER, to say it is the correct course of action--to say that it is "corrective" or "sex reassignment"--to claim that it is "fixing" or "curing" or "making right" that which "should" be some other way, is simply wrong. It is an attempt to somehow normalize a mental disorder to something it is not--and it is an attempt to elevate a surgical procedure on healthy tissue that is essentially mutilation of properly functioning organs to a necessary and appropriate treatment. It is not. But, like people are allowed to get mastectomies because they fear breast cancer, or people are allowed to do radical body modifications, there is an argument to allow it to be done. How supportive would you be of a person who viewed themselves as a legless person having their legs removed in order to feel more comfortable in their skin?

    And yes, I have to base my argument on their feelings. How else does a psychologist help a client? It's as if Freud is telling his client,
    "No, you are afraid of your Father..."
    "I'm not so sure Dr. Freud...I haven't even seen my father before."
    I don't understand your analogy.

    Of course I'm using hyperbole. If transsexuals have gone thru extensive counseling, then I would be convinced that the clinician would know if the individual was actually delusional or not, depending on how consistent the client is. I mean it isn't a "shifting sands" type thing. Transsexuals have this "in the wrong skin" feeling all of their lives. This isn't the fleeting -type of feeling that you are referring to.
    I'm not arguing whether or not they can do it--or that they shouldn't be allowed to modify their bodies as such. My point is that it is feeding a delusion and it should be recognized as such. If they still want to choose to do it....that's a different debate concerning medical ethics.

  7. #417
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    Why are we going over this again? I thought we already had discussed XX males. You conceded that people can choose their gender identity.
    ... people who have an identifiable birth defect where they are a female genetically, but sprout a penis. It's a genetic defect.



    Is it subjective when people believe they are men trapped in a woman's body? Even though they have consistently shown this feeling through extensive counseling?
    Yes--delusions are by definition persistent.

    At some point, it's no longer a feeling. At some point, they know they are a man trapped in a woman's body.
    At that point it is a full blown delusion.



    Again you already conceded the point about choice in selecting gender identity. DNA does not dictate your choice. DNA just determines whether you'll have a penis or vagina.
    If a person has a genetic defect that affects the expression of the characteristics of gender to some neutral male/female hybrid, then by all means reconstruction is called for on the affected organs.

    An individual's desire is different from an individual's genetic malformation.

  8. #418
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    My point is that it is feeding a delusion and it should be recognized as such.
    Why, because your closed mind can't accept it as a possibility? Where did you go to medical school? Do you have any medical schooling or training AT ALL?!?!?!
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  9. #419
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    Why, because your closed mind can't accept it as a possibility? Where did you go to medical school? Do you have any medical schooling or training AT ALL?!?!?!
    Some. I have training as a Psychiatric Technician and as a Certified Nursing Assistant. No-- that's nothing that makes me able to diagnose or treat people, but who needs a degree in medicine to recognize the objective fact of DNA as compared to subjective emotional disturbances concerning one's self-image?

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Anyone ever do a DNA test on the wafer and wine?
    Rather than baiting me, why don't you just follow jfuh's lead and tell me what name you would like me to utilize in responding to your pointless and bigoted comment. I'd be happy to oblige with a well-deserved insult.

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