View Poll Results: I personally feel transgender individuals are...

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  • Mentally disturbed.

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  • Slightly irregular.

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  • Perfectly normal.

    21 21.00%
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    1 1.00%
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    12 12.00%
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Thread: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

  1. #401
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    No, I believe you're wrong. XX males and XY females are not hermaphrodites. As they do not possess both gonads.
    Whatever--there actually IS a physical deformity in that case--that's the point.

    But what's the underlying notion here? Isn't it the fact that the person get's to choose an identity?
    If there is evidence of both sexes present (female DNA, male penis)--sure, it's a birth defect that makes the sex/gender inconclusive.

    It doesn't matter if that person is a hermaphrodite, an XX male, or a transsexual, or perfectly normal human being. What we have here is the freedom to choose an identity. This throws out the argument of delusion in GID. It isn't that they are delusional of their identity, it's that you are refusing to accept their identity as valid.
    Their identification is genuine--sure--but identification with the "normal" traits of a particular sex is not as it has been described here as a "woman in a man's body" or vice versa. Identifying with a particular sex is to actually BEING that particular sex like opinion is to fact. Some here are arguing that the "identification to gender traits of a particular sex" IS the fact to which the body needs to be "repaired' to match. That's not so. Opinion is relative--just as sexual identification is relative. DNA is fact.



    And that's the disorder. The sex (penis or vagina) doesn't reconcile with the identity. The question that we've been pounding out in this thread is whether to fix the identity or fix the sex. To fix the identity is to assume it is a delusion, which I've argued against, and shown you why it isn't a delusion. To fix the sex is simple corrective surgery.
    Making the body appear more male to coincide with the identification to a gender is not "fixing the sex"--the fact of the DNA remains.



    You are still misunderstanding why I am presenting Phantom Limb to you. I am not comparing the two, I know full well that they are categorically different. I am showing you that healing the mind doesn't equate to brain surgery. That corrective surgery is a legitimate resolution to GID. And that it isn't as you say, "cutting/mutilating healthy flesh." Just because the operation doesn't operate on the brain, doesn't mean it doesn't heal the mind (i.e. Prosthetics for Phantom Limb).
    And I don't think your getting that the fact that believing you are a sex opposite to your genetic expression is a delusion by definition.
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    Last edited by Felicity; 10-23-08 at 01:43 PM.

  2. #402
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Whatever--there actually IS a physical deformity in that case--that's the point.

    If there is evidence of both sexes present (female DNA, male penis)--sure, it's a birth defect that makes the sex/gender inconclusive.
    Why is it not that the defect is the sex organs? Why must it be a defect in the mind? As Captain has pointed out, the identification could be established prior to the development of any sex organs.

    This goes back to me saying about the direction in which we place the disorder.

    Their identification is genuine--sure--but identification with the "normal" traits of a particular sex is not as it has been described here as a "woman in a man's body" or vice versa. Identifying with a particular sex is to actually BEING that particular sex like opinion is to fact. Some here are arguing that the "identification to gender traits of a particular sex" IS the fact to which the body needs to be "repaired' to match. That's not so. Opinion is relative--just as sexual identification is relative. DNA is fact.
    I'm not saying it's a cure. There aren't any cures. Corrective surgery is not a cure. It's a way to deal with the problem. Again, it's a way to reconcile identity with sex/body.

    And I am against those who think this is adding to the problem, that we are "facilitating their disorder" (which I think someone said earlier in the thread).

    Making the body appear more male to coincide with the identification to a gender is not "fixing the sex"--the fact of the DNA remains.
    And nevertheless it resolves the problem for many transsexuals. They live much happier lives, as have shown by statistical reviews.

    And I don't think your getting that the fact that believing you are a sex opposite to your genetic expression is a delusion by definition.
    Because it isn't a delusion. As I have said, your body does not dictate identity. If it did, then what are XX males? If you allow them to choose their identity, what makes their choice more valid than the transsexuals? The fact that XX males are able to choose, means that identity can be chosen. Meaning body cannot dictate if choice is possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    But what's the underlying notion here? Isn't it the fact that the person get's to choose an identity?
    The underlying matter is cooperating with mental illness to the point of helping someone destroy their working healthy genitalia in favor of some facsimile genitalia that may or may not work properly, most likely won't fool anyone, and possibly may destroy their ability to intimately interact or enjoy sexual activity.

    I've said repeatedly that I don't have a problem with folks cross-dressing or anything else. I don't care how they express their identity at all. Identity in my opinion shouldn't be tied to genitalia. There's nothing untoward, in my mind, about folks defying stereotypical gender roles in non-destructive ways.
    Destroying healthy tissue and working genitalia is destructive, unnecessary, and won't turn a male into a female.

    It doesn't matter if that person is a hermaphrodite, an XX male, or a transsexual, or perfectly normal human being. What we have here is the freedom to choose an identity. This throws out the argument of delusion in GID. It isn't that they are delusional of their identity, it's that you are refusing to accept their identity as valid.
    Identity is not tied to a penis or vagina. I don't care how they present themselves. I just think it's unethical to allow them to self destruct at the hands of a surgeon. They will always have to deal with the fact that their genitals are man-made and they will likely always have to intimately confess that they are trans. They will NEVER escape that. The destruction of the genitals won't change that. The fact that they were male or female will always be present and they will always have to relay that info one way or another so why bother destroying healthy working tissues?


    And that's the disorder. The sex (penis or vagina) doesn't reconcile with the identity. The question that we've been pounding out in this thread is whether to fix the identity or fix the sex. To fix the identity is to assume it is a delusion, which I've argued against, and shown you why it isn't a delusion. To fix the sex is simple corrective surgery.
    There's nothing to fix about identity. Men don't have to present a certain way and neither do women. If they are attempting to get away from the embarrassment of adopting the stereotypical look and roles of the opposite sex that's impossible. Their true sex remains no matter how much surgical intervention they put themselves through. They will always have to explain their transness.

    You are still misunderstanding why I am presenting Phantom Limb to you. I am not comparing the two, I know full well that they are categorically different. I am showing you that healing the mind doesn't equate to brain surgery. That corrective surgery is a legitimate resolution to GID. And that it isn't as you say, "cutting/mutilating healthy flesh." Just because the operation doesn't operate on the brain, doesn't mean it doesn't heal the mind (i.e. Prosthetics for Phantom Limb).
    Calling it "corrective" is disingenuous. When you take healthy tissue and literally destroy it that's not corrective. That's cooperating with mental illness. Indulging their dysphoria and being very PC about.
    Last edited by talloulou; 10-23-08 at 02:17 PM.

  4. #404
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    The underlying matter is cooperating with mental illness to the point of helping someone destroy their working healthy genitalia in favor of some facsimile genitalia that may or may not work properly, most likely won't fool anyone, and possibly may destroy their ability to intimately interact or enjoy sexual activity.
    Again, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but SRT (sex reassignment therapy; Since you find issue with me using "corrective" surgery) is not a cure. It's a way to deal with the problem. It's not going to fix everything, and I'm sure most transsexuals who gone through counseling knows this.

    I've said repeatedly that I don't have a problem with folks cross-dressing or anything else. I don't care how they express their identity at all. Identity in my opinion shouldn't be tied to genitalia. There's nothing untoward, in my mind, about folks defying stereotypical gender roles in non-destructive ways.
    Destroying healthy tissue and working genitalia is destructive, unnecessary, and won't turn a male into a female.
    No, it wont turn a male into a female. That's not the point.

    A man with an amputated arm will never get his arm back. The prosthetic is nonetheless still a way to deal with the problem.

    The point is that there are ways to help.

    Identity is not tied to a penis or vagina. I don't care how they present themselves. I just think it's unethical to allow them to self destruct at the hands of a surgeon. They will always have to deal with the fact that their genitals are man-made and they will likely always have to intimately confess that they are trans. They will NEVER escape that. The destruction of the genitals won't change that. The fact that they were male or female will always be present and they will always have to relay that info one way or another so why bother destroying healthy working tissues?
    I'm a broken record again. Refer to above.

    There's nothing to fix about identity. Men don't have to present a certain way and neither do women. If they are attempting to get away from the embarrassment of adopting the stereotypical look and roles of the opposite sex that's impossible. Their true sex remains no matter how much surgical intervention they put themselves through. They will always have to explain their transness.
    Here it is again. Refer to above.

    Calling it "corrective" is disingenuous. When you take healthy tissue and literally destroy it that's not corrective. That's cooperating with mental illness. Indulging their dysphoria and being very PC about.
    I will refer it as SRT from now on.

    I have issue with people saying that its "facilitating the disorder." This is because you do not accept that the person's identity is valid. If you do accept that it is valid, then you cannot come to the conclusion that it is delusional. If it's not delusional, then the problem is organic. Thus the solution is changing the body, and not the mind. This is far from "cooperating with mental illness."

    The first step you must take is to address whether you accept the persons choice of identity.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

  5. #405
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    I will refer it as SRT from now on.
    You can't "reassign" sex--it's in the DNA. Call it Elective Gender Expression Surgery and I'll agree with you.

    I have issue with people saying that its "facilitating the disorder." This is because you do not accept that the person's identity is valid.
    Their feelings are valid--their belief that it is what they actually ARE is what is false. One can't argue with how one "feels."


    If you do accept that it is valid, then you cannot come to the conclusion that it is delusional.
    You can--Identity is how one views oneself. If there is irrefutable evidence (such as a penis and XY chromosomes) then the belief that one is actually a female trapped in a male body is a delusion. Sure--their "feeling" like they are a female in a male body is valid, but the "belief" that in actuality that they are is the delusion.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    You can't "reassign" sex--it's in the DNA. Call it Elective Gender Expression Surgery and I'll agree with you.
    Fine, what ever it takes to stop us from going on a tangent. EGES it is.
    I'm not trying to be disingenuous by using "corrective" surgery, or saying that sex can be "reassigned" with SRT. As I've said before it doesn't achieve that.

    Their feelings are valid--their belief that it is what they actually ARE is what is false. One can't argue with how one "feels."


    You can--Identity is how one views oneself. If there is irrefutable evidence (such as a penis and XY chromosomes) then the belief that one is actually a female trapped in a male body is a delusion. Sure--their "feeling" like they are a female in a male body is valid, but the "belief" that in actuality that they are is the delusion.
    Again, that just puts the defect in the mind. Why is it not the sex organs that is the defect? But since you cannot argue how one feels, what makes you say that what they believe is wrong? It can't possibly be that the sex organs are the defect? Is that really not possible?
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    Fine, what ever it takes to stop us from going on a tangent. EGES it is.
    I'm not trying to be disingenuous by using "corrective" surgery, or saying that sex can be "reassigned" with SRT. As I've said before it doesn't achieve that.



    Again, that just puts the defect in the mind. Why is it not the sex organs that is the defect? But since you cannot argue how one feels, what makes you say that what they believe is wrong? It can't possibly be that the sex organs are the defect? Is that really not possible?
    Healthy working human tissue that looks and acts exactly as it is supposed to can't be called defective in any sane rational way.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    Again, that just puts the defect in the mind. Why is it not the sex organs that is the defect? [
    If you believe you are a horse, trapped in a human body, your feeling that way isn't wrong, but it is a delusion!

    THE DNA determines sex--NOT the mind or the brain or society...you are what you are. Proclivities and preferences be damned.

    But since you cannot argue how one feels, what makes you say that what they believe is wrong?
    "feelings" are one thing--there isn't a "right feeling" or a "wrong feeling"--they are the realm of emotions and that is entirely subjective. What one "believes" can be tested against objective fact. One can test the "belief" that he/she is a female against the DNA (and generally genitals and sex organs). If the belief and the DNA do not coincide...That's a delusion.

    The underlying problem is that you are building your argument upon "feelings"--feelings shift with the shifting sands and leave one with no clear direction and nothing to validate what their opinion is at the moment.

    This is not to say a person who "feels" in the wrong skin can't try to change the skin, but as jallman kept saying--it is an illusion (although I believe he called it "gender pretend").

    It can't possibly be that the sex organs are the defect? Is that really not possible?
    You're the one who cited XXmale syndrome. But then again--there the sex organs are actually a deformity!

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Healthy working human tissue that looks and acts exactly as it is supposed to can't be called defective in any sane rational way.
    And a healthy working mind that is working as it is supposed to has no defect either. Again, why is it that you place the defect in the mind? Why can it not be that the incompatibility lies in the body and not the mind?

    Why do you only accept the argument from one side and not the other? I don't understand... You are quick to say that the defect is in the mind because the sex organs are healthy. Yet can you show that the mind, brain, nervous tissue, are unhealthy? Can you show a section of the brain that is not operating properly? Can you show which lobe transsexualism is caused?

    What do you base that the mind is unhealthy? Can you not use that same argument the other way around? Such as: I see a perfectly normal average brain therefore the defect must be in the sex organs. Is this not the same type of reasoning that you are using to base your judgment?
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    Why can it not be that the incompatibility lies in the body and not the mind?
    DNA

    Why do you only accept the argument from one side and not the other? I don't understand...
    Subjective vs. Objective

    You are quick to say that the defect is in the mind because the sex organs are healthy. Yet can you show that the mind, brain, nervous tissue, are unhealthy?
    DNA contradicting the desire to have certain sex organs and still BELIEVING one is not the sex the DNA indicates = delusional brain processes.

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