View Poll Results: I personally feel transgender individuals are...

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  • Mentally disturbed.

    39 39.00%
  • Slightly irregular.

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  • Perfectly normal.

    21 21.00%
  • Progressive.

    1 1.00%
  • Self-Actualized.

    12 12.00%
  • Other (specify).

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Thread: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

  1. #391
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    Sigh...

    The article I cited was to give you a general background, which is what wikipedia is good for. What it isn't good for is claiming truth from it, as we all know.

    Phantom limb is interpreted in many ways. For instance, I can argue against wikipedia and say that because the end neurons are sending a message to the brain, which is the cause of the sensation of phantom limb.

    Before you respond, realize that the motor cortex is not the command center, it is just reflective to the peripheral nervous system. Shown here:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Homunculus.png
    When electrically probed in the corresponding areas, you will feel a sensation in that area. A probe in the pinky would cause a reaction in the brain in the corresponding area. So which way is it? The pinky giving the command "Hey I feel something!" or is the brain saying that?

    This type of thinking isn't my own random thoughts. It's what contemporary psychologists have been struggling with in recent years. The old ideology that the brain is the "command center" is outdated, as is Freud and Skinner. Theories get replaced by more accurate ones. It's just science.
    Look I don't know what to tell you.

    Basically if the nervous system is damaged and fails to send a message to the brain the brain doesn't have a clue what's happening. The nerves don't think on their own which is why the message must get to the brain to be thought about or interpreted.

    If you have no feeling in your foot your brain has no idea if your foot is being touched, if your foot is on fire, if your foot is getting cut open, etc.

    The message has to get to the brain otherwise you don't know what's happening. Your foot can't tell you what's happening. It can't think on its own. It has to deliver the message to the brain. If the brain doesn't get the message for whatever reason you will have no thoughts about it whatsoever. The message won't be interpreted or received somewhere else. It must get to the brain in order to be acknowledged on a conscious level.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Look I don't know what to tell you.

    Basically if the nervous system is damaged and fails to send a message to the brain the brain doesn't have a clue what's happening. The nerves don't think on their own which is why the message must get to the brain to be thought about or interpreted.

    If you have no feeling in your foot your brain has no idea if your foot is being touched, if your foot is on fire, if your foot is getting cut open, etc.

    The message has to get to the brain otherwise you don't know what's happening. Your foot can't tell you what's happening. It can't think on its own. It has to deliver the message to the brain. If the brain doesn't get the message for whatever reason you will have no thoughts about it whatsoever. The message won't be interpreted or received somewhere else. It must get to the brain in order to be acknowledged on a conscious level.
    Exactly, which is why I suggest it is bidirectional or multi-directional. A message is sent from one place to a second place.

    The way you have argued just now does not support that the brain is the command center. It only supports that it is a component of the dialogue that is taking place.

    In phantom limb, as I said before, the peripheral nervous system has not reconciled with the brain's sensory/motor cortex (the picture I linked earlier) because it has not been corrected. Essentially the brain doesn't know it lost an arm, which is why people still feel the non-existent limb. Therefore, in order to let it know, the arm (peripheral NS) must send a message to the brain so that rewiring may take place. Which means the command came from the peripheral nervous system via the process of Muscle Memory, which if you recall is repetitious motor activity that becomes automatic. In other words, muscle memory is a way of "re-wiring" your brain. Which is again taking commands from the peripheral who is doing the thinking.
    Last edited by Lightdemon; 10-22-08 at 11:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Captain said it is a disorder that occurs in the brain prior to development of the sex organs. In the normal process, the two would match--if it is a brain issue, then the "injury" that may need "repair" occurred in the brain and has nothing to do with the genetic expression of "male-ness" or "female-ness."
    No, I never said it was a disorder.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, I never said it was a disorder.
    Do you not agree that it is called Gender Identity Disorder?

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Do you not agree that it is called Gender Identity Disorder?
    You were responding to this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    It depends on how you understand gender. One school of thought is to define gender by one's sexual organs. Another is that gender has its basis in the brain, the formation of which predates the formation of the sex organs and is independent of them. This would negate the "delusion" argument.
    I made no mention of a disorder, here. The disorder is caused by the incongruity between how the brain processes gender, based on the research that indicates that gender may be understood there before the formation of sex organs vs. the genital biology of gender. One can recover from the disorder through sex reassignment.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You were responding to this post:



    I made no mention of a disorder, here. The disorder is caused by the incongruity between how the brain processes gender, based on the research that indicates that gender may be understood there before the formation of sex organs vs. the genital biology of gender. One can recover from the disorder through sex reassignment.
    Do these same researchers argue that the embryo is not a person because it's thalmo-cortical connections aren't hooked up and therefore no actual "perception" of anything can occur in the "brain" prior to 21 weeks? Just trying to be consistent, you know....


    Anyway--DNA is a fact. If DNA says make male parts, it does. If the brain/mind tells the person differently, it is either a delusion of the mind, or an organic problem in the brain. It seems you are trying to claim both and neither depending on which position you are arguing against and those of us who are trying to see how mutilating healthy flesh "cures" the gender perception just want a straight answer (no pun intended).

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You were responding to this post:



    I made no mention of a disorder, here. The disorder is caused by the incongruity between how the brain processes gender, based on the research that indicates that gender may be understood there before the formation of sex organs vs. the genital biology of gender. One can recover from the disorder through sex reassignment.
    Then why did John Hopkins find that the psychological conditions were still present post op and while many claim to be pleased with their sex change and not regret it their was no improvement with the psychological aspects of their condition.

    The idea that they're "recovered" post op is overly simple and hardly backed up by large extensive studies.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Do these same researchers argue that the embryo is not a person because it's thalmo-cortical connections aren't hooked up and therefore no actual "perception" of anything can occur in the "brain" prior to 21 weeks? Just trying to be consistent, you know....


    Anyway--DNA is a fact. If DNA says make male parts, it does. If the brain/mind tells the person differently, it is either a delusion of the mind, or an organic problem in the brain.
    Again, the body does not dictate identity. You are ignoring XX males, and XY females. If DNA is a fact, then those born with XX shouldn't have penises, and yet they do. So what are they? Women or men? Do you tell them what their gender is? Or do you allow them to tell you?

    It seems you are trying to claim both and neither depending on which position you are arguing against and those of us who are trying to see how mutilating healthy flesh "cures" the gender perception just want a straight answer (no pun intended).
    It isn't a delusion. A delusion would imply believing in something false. Since you cannot dictate another person's gender identity, you cannot say it is false. Thus you cannot assume it is delusional.

    It is an organic problem, but it isn't solved through brain surgery. As I've shown you already, healing the mind doesn't necessarily involve cutting open the brain (Phantom Limb).
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    Again, the body does not dictate identity. You are ignoring XX males, and XY females. If DNA is a fact, then those born with XX shouldn't have penises, and yet they do. So what are they? Women or men? Do you tell them what their gender is? Or do you allow them to tell you?
    XX male syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Had to look that one up. In the rare case of a hermaphrodite--THAT person gets to choose. It's a biological disorder that is physically evidenced in the sex organs. That would be a deformity in the genitals that would need repair.


    It isn't a delusion. A delusion would imply believing in something false. Since you cannot dictate another person's gender identity, you cannot say it is false. Thus you cannot assume it is delusional.
    It's not how I feel about my genitals and organs that make me female--or how I feel about not having a penis. It's the FACT OF my genitals and organs that dictate my sex. How I "feel" about it is something else entirely. Gender points to how I identify to the "normal" expression of sexual traits that are genetically female. People are people--the way they act and feel is entirely subjective. But "male" or "female" is not--it's fact.


    It is an organic problem, but it isn't solved through brain surgery. As I've shown you already, healing the mind doesn't necessarily involve cutting open the brain (Phantom Limb).
    Phantom limb simply isn't a good example--the limb once was there. In GID, those organs that one desires are simply not a fact and never were--it is entirely a delusion that one is another sex in "reality"--no...only in the delusion.

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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    XX male syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Had to look that one up. In the rare case of a hermaphrodite--THAT person gets to choose. It's a biological disorder that is physically evidenced in the sex organs. That would be a deformity in the genitals that would need repair.
    No, I believe you're wrong. XX males and XY females are not hermaphrodites. As they do not possess both gonads.

    But what's the underlying notion here? Isn't it the fact that the person get's to choose an identity?

    It doesn't matter if that person is a hermaphrodite, an XX male, or a transsexual, or perfectly normal human being. What we have here is the freedom to choose an identity. This throws out the argument of delusion in GID. It isn't that they are delusional of their identity, it's that you are refusing to accept their identity as valid.

    It's not how I feel about my genitals and organs that make me female--or how I feel about not having a penis. It's the FACT OF my genitals and organs that dictate my sex. How I "feel" about it is something else entirely. Gender points to how I identify to the "normal" expression of sexual traits that are genetically female. People are people--the way they act and feel is entirely subjective. But "male" or "female" is not--it's fact.
    And that's the disorder. The sex (penis or vagina) doesn't reconcile with the identity. The question that we've been pounding out in this thread is whether to fix the identity or fix the sex. To fix the identity is to assume it is a delusion, which I've argued against, and shown you why it isn't a delusion. To fix the sex is simple corrective surgery.


    Phantom limb simply isn't a good example--the limb once was there. In GID, those organs that one desires are simply not a fact and never were--it is entirely a delusion that one is another sex in "reality"--no...only in the delusion.
    You are still misunderstanding why I am presenting Phantom Limb to you. I am not comparing the two, I know full well that they are categorically different. I am showing you that healing the mind doesn't equate to brain surgery. That corrective surgery is a legitimate resolution to GID. And that it isn't as you say, "cutting/mutilating healthy flesh." Just because the operation doesn't operate on the brain, doesn't mean it doesn't heal the mind (i.e. Prosthetics for Phantom Limb).
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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