Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

Lightdemon · 10-22-08, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by talloulou

Obviously the entire body of our organism is a "system" with messages constantly being sent from the body to the brain. But the brain is the interpretation center, the thinking center.

The phantom limb example that I provided refuted this. The delusion of the of the non-existent limb, didn't exist in the brain. Instead it existed in the peripheral nervous system, Muscle Memory. If such a phenomenon can occur, then that rules out that the brain is the only organ that does the interpreting.

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The brain is your mind. This doesn't mean other parts of the body don't affect the brain and vice versa but the argument that the mind and brain are separate things has no scientific backing.

The brain uses what we refer to as neural transmitters, which are basically molecules that act as messages. Why are hormones any different? Just because they travel slower and not electrically? The brain a room in which interpretation takes place. There are other "rooms" where interpretation takes place.

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Chemical imbalance in the brain will alter how you think, how you feel, etc. Hormones can affect your brain. I fail to see how getting "hormonal" is evidence that the mind and brain are two distinct entities.

Simply because hormones dictate the way you think. How do you think, if not with your mind?

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The idea of a mind that is separate from the brain is an ideological argument that involves spirits and souls and so forth.

That is what people used to think of Phantom Limb. That their souls remained even though part of their body were gone. But of course, I offered no such interpretation like that. I offered you a scientific explanation, which should be treated as such.

talloulou · 10-22-08, 10:50 PM

Here read about the phantom limb:

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In the early 1990s, Tim Pons, at the National Institutes of Health (NIH), showed that the brain can reorganize if sensory input is cut off (Pons et al. 1991). Hearing about these results,V. S. Ramachandran realized that phantom limb sensations could be due to "crosswiring" in the somatosensory cortex, which is located in the postcentral gyrus (Ramachandran & Blakeslee 1998; Ramachandran & Hirstein 1998), and which receives input from the limbs and body. Input from the left side of the body goes to the right hemisphere and vice versa. The input from extremities comes into the somatosensory cortex in an ordered way, the representation of which is referred to as the somatosensory homonculus. Input from the hand is located next to the input from the arm, input from the foot is located next to input from the hand, and so on. One oddity is input from the face is located next to input from the hand.

Ramachandran reasoned that if someone were to lose their right hand in an accident, they may then have the feelings of a phantom limb because the input that normally would go from their hand to the left somatosensory cortex would be stopped. The areas in the somatosensory cortex that are near to the ones of the hand (the arm and face) will take over (or "remap") this cortical region that no longer has input. Ramachandran and colleagues first demonstrated this remapping by showing that stroking different parts of the face led to perceptions of being touched on different parts of the missing limb (Ramachandran, Rogers-Ramachandran & Stewart 1992). Through magnetoencephalography (MEG), which permits visualization of activity in the human brain (Yang et al. 1994), Ramachandran verified the reorganization in the somatosensory cortex.

Phantom limb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nothing about that description alludes to a mind that is separate from a brain.

Lightdemon · 10-22-08, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by talloulou

Here read about the phantom limb:

Phantom limb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nothing about that description alludes to a mind that is separate from a brain.

Did you bother to read about Muscle Memory, that I linked earlier?

talloulou · 10-22-08, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightdemon

The brain uses what we refer to as neural transmitters, which are basically molecules that act as messages. Why are hormones any different? Just because they travel slower and not electrically? The brain a room in which interpretation takes place. There are other "rooms" where interpretation takes place.

WTF? Hormones don't think. They don't interpret. They may affect the brains but they don't become "thinking centers."

We DO NOT have "other rooms" where interpretation/thinking takes place. That all happens in the brain.

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Simply because hormones dictate the way you think. How do you think, if not with your mind?

Hormones do not dictate the way you think. Hormones affect your system which affects the messages sent to your brain via your nervous system.

Quote:

That is what people used to think of Phantom Limb. That their souls remained even though part of their body were gone. But of course, I offered no such interpretation like that. I offered you a scientific explanation, which should be treated as such.

There's nothing scientific about suggesting there are "other rooms" that think and interpret other than the brain in the human body.

Kayleigh Katz · 10-22-08, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by talloulou

Which one did you use to write that sentence? I recommend trying out the other one instead as the sentence was laughable nonsense.

This feels like arguing with someone that thinks the earth is flat.

A brain is a chunk of meat.
A mind is consciousness, the ability to perceive.

talloulou · 10-22-08, 10:57 PM

Yes i did.

You seemed to have missed this part completely:

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Even though the process is really brain-muscle memory or motor memory, the colloquial expression "muscle memory" is commonly used.

talloulou · 10-22-08, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kayleigh Katz

This feels like arguing with someone that thinks the earth is flat.

A brain is a chunk of meat.
A mind is consciousness, the ability to perceive.

bwahahaha

Well there's tons of evidence which suggests that once your "chunk of meat" is completely messed up your ability to think and perceive is messed up as well.

And yes it is very much like arguing with someone who thinks the earth is flat.

1069 · 10-22-08, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kayleigh Katz

This feels like arguing with someone that thinks the earth is flat.

A brain is a chunk of meat.
A mind is consciousness, the ability to perceive.

The genitals are a chunk of meat, too.
I guess what it boils down to is, which chunk of meat is it easier to alter, when the two are so misaligned that the possessor of said chunks of meat cannot live happily or healthily with the dissonance?

Lightdemon · 10-22-08, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by talloulou

WTF? Hormones don't think. They don't interpret. They may affect the brains but they don't become "thinking centers."

We DO NOT have "other rooms" where interpretation/thinking takes place. That all happens in the brain.

Hormones do not dictate the way you think. Hormones affect your system which affects the messages sent to your brain via your nervous system.

There's nothing scientific about suggesting there are "other rooms" that think and interpret other than the brain in the human body.

You're incredulity is a product of your belief that the brain is sending commands because it is the one doing the interpreting. A belief that I disagree with.

The system we are talking about uses molecules to communicate. How do you figure which end is giving a command? Because you see, to command is to imply thinking. However, when you're hungry, your brain doesn't command your stomach to feel hungry. It's the other way around. No food in the stomach sends a message to the brain, then you feel hungry. As with hormones. "Hey, I'm old enough now, start growing some pubs down there please!" and the brain complies (courtesy of the hypothalamus.)

How do you figure which end is giving the command? Personally, I believe it is bidirectional/multi-directional. Meaning that the entire system itself is the "mind."

talloulou · 10-22-08, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1069

The genitals are a chunk of meat, too.
I guess what it boils down to is, which chunk of meat is it easier to alter, when the two are so misaligned that the possessor of said chunks of meat cannot live happily or healthily with the dissonance?

Well if the dysphoria is in the mind and the mind is something other than all these chunks of meat then perhaps they should just call in a witch dr.

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