View Poll Results: I personally feel transgender individuals are...

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  • Mentally disturbed.

    39 39.00%
  • Slightly irregular.

    15 15.00%
  • Perfectly normal.

    21 21.00%
  • Progressive.

    1 1.00%
  • Self-Actualized.

    12 12.00%
  • Other (specify).

    12 12.00%
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Thread: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

  1. #151
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Yes, you have it completely misunderstood. After what you just spewed at me, you little tramp, don't expect that I am going to have any intention of polite discussion with you. **** off.
    And what did I spew? That you are gay, that's well known; that you are married to your gay partner, a privilege Republicans would like to strip you of, also well known; that you're position on transgender seems odd because of your homosexuality and the problems you've likely faced with tolerance and acceptance; well we're learning about that here. Where is there any spewing? I think you should be shown tolerance and acceptance, and so should transgenders.
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Hey jallman, I'm debating. Did you forget that on a debate site people may have other opinions counter to your own? I did offer my opinion; it's stupid to give a **** about what other people choose to do to themselves especially if they do it in a manner to feel more comfortable with who they are. Here's a continuation of my opinion; it ain't none of your business what people choose to do in this case, their property their rules. Here is more of my opinion; social engineering prudes need to butt out! People should be free to do as they like so long as they ain't hurting anyone else in the process.
    Yes yes yes...because that whole libertarian anarchy thing is the end all of every debate. Everyone just gets to do whatever they want to do despite the consequences.

    Ain't buying into your social anarchy schtick, Ikari. Medical professionals should be bound by ethics. It's not like going to a body shop and deciding whether a spoiler will look nice on your car or not...this is a human body and invasive surgical procedures should be undertaken with retraint and care.

    Further, it's not in anyone's interest to have doctor's selling pipe dreams to the mentally unstable. It's a devaluing of humanity when such occurs.

  3. #153
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    That's all very nice and libertarian.
    heheh, it is isn't it.

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    My concerns stem from the belief that all forms of dysphoria have a mental component. Surgical alterations are usually permanent while a variety of mental illnesses are not. A guy who absolutely feels that he mentally cannot live with his penis may not in fact be as hysterical if given time and treatment of the deeper mental issues. What the man wants is to be made a woman. This is not doable so ****ing around with his genitals with a knife is insane. Mentally ill people shouldn't be exploited. Depressed people especially shouldn't be exploited. Those are my only concerns.
    Fair enough. But I think specifically as it relates to this case that many people who eventually do decide to go through with this surgery have sought other help, have examined themselves deeply, and have made other strives eventually concluding that their physical manifestation does not match their mental/emotional manifestation. Thus they choose to go ahead and change their physical form to match their mental and emotional form.

    Now if you want to talk about suicide and such, I think your points become even more applicable because some self-destructive behavior such as suicide is done more on a spur of a moment thing. If one receives proper help it is very possible to get them over the stage and into a more healthy mental state. That being said, I don't think suicide should be illegal and I have no problem with doctor assisted suicide. Leave me the hell out of it though cause I like existing....it's about all I can do well.
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  4. #154
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerwind View Post
    And what did I spew? That you are gay, that's well known; that you are married to your gay partner, a privilege Republicans would like to strip you of, also well known; that you're position on transgender seems odd because of your homosexuality and the problems you've likely faced with tolerance and acceptance; well we're learning about that here. Where is there any spewing? I think you should be shown tolerance and acceptance, and so should transgenders.
    I'd just like it noted that I'm not intolerant of men who want to undergo gender reassignment surgery or women who have breast implants. I'm just concerned that they're being sold an illusion for profit during a time when mentally they're a bit hysterical and suffering from dysphoria. Intolerance would suggest disgust or hatred of them when in reality I'm concerned for them (when they have a desire to do bodily harm) and compassionately against watching drs. take advantage of the mentally ill.

  5. #155
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Yes yes yes...because that whole libertarian anarchy thing is the end all of every debate. Everyone just gets to do whatever they want to do despite the consequences.

    Ain't buying into your social anarchy schtick, Ikari. Medical professionals should be bound by ethics. It's not like going to a body shop and deciding whether a spoiler will look nice on your car or not...this is a human body and invasive surgical procedures should be undertaken with retraint and care.

    Further, it's not in anyone's interest to have doctor's selling pipe dreams to the mentally unstable. It's a devaluing of humanity when such occurs.
    ANARCHY ANARCHY ANARCHY!!!!!

    I'm not an anarchist, BTW. Perchance minarchist is a better term, but definitely not into the whole anarchy thing. Medical professionals are bound by ethics. They probably ain't gonna let someone die if they have the power to stop it. But specifically as it relates to this topic I don't know if there is an ethics question. The brain does a lot of crap, and we can't understand it all. Is it really inconceivable that one's physical manifestation doesn't match their mental/emotional? Why is this a "disease" other than the fact that some have merely labeled it as such. Less you're actually a medical professional, a neurologist or psychologist; than your definitions of the transgendered are merely engineered to match pre-conceived notions you have.

    If someone were truly able to feel better about themselves, to interact better with society, by undergoing surgery which would change their outward appearance to match their mental and emotional; would you really tell them they are wrong for doing so? Wrong for wanting to be happy?

    I think that in the end there's a lot going on inside that brain that neither you nor I know or can quantify. What we define as normal is only normal because of our experiences and because our own chemicals in our brain tell us so. Someone else's chemicals may be different and that doesn't necessarily make them wrong or bad or insane; just different. There are lots of different combination which can go on inside the head. To pretend that they are the result of mental insanity when you have no information, proof, or knowledge of the subject I believe is overstepping boundaries.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  6. #156
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post



    If you've truly accepted my premise, then you shouldn't have arrive to the conclusion of self harm. If we can determine their gender identity, then the solution is to change the body. Since it is no longer the mind that is unfit for the body, that means the body is unfit for the mind.

    Therefore it isn't self harm, it's corrective surgery.
    It would only be "corrective" surgery if it was creating more than an illusion. A woman with implants doesn't have big tits. She's got balloons. A man who lopes off his penis isn't suddenly a woman, he's a man with no penis.

    There was no correction.

    That's why I question the legitimacy of the alteration, the legitimacy of considering it a cure or form of healing. I also frankly find it hard to believe the initial dysphoria up and goes away post op. I think, since reality hasn't changed, the dysphoria is likely still present and now has added features of bodily mutilation present in the case. I think there's a decent case to be made that the drs. should be held accountable for maltreatment of the patient. When the patient was in a hysterical mental state the drs. surgical interventions become even more malicious and questionable.

  7. #157
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    ANARCHY ANARCHY ANARCHY!!!!!

    I'm not an anarchist, BTW. Perchance minarchist is a better term, but definitely not into the whole anarchy thing. Medical professionals are bound by ethics. They probably ain't gonna let someone die if they have the power to stop it. But specifically as it relates to this topic I don't know if there is an ethics question. The brain does a lot of crap, and we can't understand it all. Is it really inconceivable that one's physical manifestation doesn't match their mental/emotional? Why is this a "disease" other than the fact that some have merely labeled it as such. Less you're actually a medical professional, a neurologist or psychologist; than your definitions of the transgendered are merely engineered to match pre-conceived notions you have.

    If someone were truly able to feel better about themselves, to interact better with society, by undergoing surgery which would change their outward appearance to match their mental and emotional; would you really tell them they are wrong for doing so? Wrong for wanting to be happy?

    I think that in the end there's a lot going on inside that brain that neither you nor I know or can quantify. What we define as normal is only normal because of our experiences and because our own chemicals in our brain tell us so. Someone else's chemicals may be different and that doesn't necessarily make them wrong or bad or insane; just different. There are lots of different combination which can go on inside the head. To pretend that they are the result of mental insanity when you have no information, proof, or knowledge of the subject I believe is overstepping boundaries.
    I don't know...it seems a very simple equation to me:

    Delusion: suffering from a false perception of reality.
    Penis and Testicles: Male Gender
    Vagina and ovaries: Female Gender

    When Penis and Testicles thinks it's female = delusion.
    When Vagina and Ovaries thinks it's male = delusion.

    Delusion is mental defect. I don't think surgery on the penis is really what it takes to alleviate a problem in the mind. But that's just my opinion.

  8. #158
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    That's my point. There's no proof that it does improve the emotional state or well being of the patient.
    But there is proof that it does, in fact, improve their health, mood, and behavior.

    IJ TRANSGENDER - Gender Role Reversal among Postoperative Transsexuals

    Sex reassignment surgery (SRS) is an effective method to treat the most extreme form of gender dysphoria, often referred to as transsexualism. Overall satisfactory post-operative results are reported of 87% for male-to-female transsexuals (MFs) and 97% for female-to-male transsexuals (FMs) (Green and Fleming, 1990). However, the treatment is not equally successful in all cases. In spite of strict prior selection and counseling during the treatment, an estimated 1 to 2 percent of those treated express regret about the SRS, be it for different reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

  9. #159
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Further, it's not in anyone's interest to have doctor's selling pipe dreams to the mentally unstable. It's a devaluing of humanity when such occurs.
    I would have to agree with this. There has to be a degree of mental instability going on that is being covered up simply because people, in their haste to please some weak politically correct ideal, has accepted this as "normal."

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  10. #160
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I'd just like it noted that I'm not intolerant of men who want to undergo gender reassignment surgery or women who have breast implants. I'm just concerned that they're being sold an illusion for profit during a time when mentally they're a bit hysterical and suffering from dysphoria. Intolerance would suggest disgust or hatred of them when in reality I'm concerned for them (when they have a desire to do bodily harm) and compassionately against watching drs. take advantage of the mentally ill.
    Which is exactly the rationale we were all fed about gays. Sorry, it was bogus then, its bogus now.
    jallman: "It's all good. At least you have a thick skin and can take being poked fun back at without crying. "

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