View Poll Results: I personally feel transgender individuals are...

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  • Mentally disturbed.

    39 39.00%
  • Slightly irregular.

    15 15.00%
  • Perfectly normal.

    21 21.00%
  • Progressive.

    1 1.00%
  • Self-Actualized.

    12 12.00%
  • Other (specify).

    12 12.00%
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Thread: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

  1. #141
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Cause it's self destructive, irrational, and pointless.
    So is eating McDonald's everyday...we gonna go bitch about that? When the hell did that become illegal; why the hell should it be illegal? Who are you to say what's irrational and pointless. Maybe people find a lot of relief in it, maybe they find themselves in a happier place more able to deal with everyday life because of it. Who the hell are you to say no? Tom Cruise or something over there telling us what we should and shouldn't do like you know the minds of others. Keep your nose out of other people's business...if someone wants to be self-destructive; let them. Their body, their choice, their business.

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Should drs. really be paid to deal with mental illness in a way that's self destructive?
    Why not? It's just your definition of self-destructive in this case anyway. And last I checked, no one died and made you king of psychology. If someone wants to pay a doctor to "mutilate" themselves....their choice. What's it to you? How is this any of your business? Why should you even have a say in the matter? And how do you even know it's self-destructive. You a neurologist? A psychologist? You know how the brain works and how people feel? If they truly percieve themselves to something and move in that direction and it makes them happy and better able to interact with the rest of society, who the hell are you to say "no"?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Should the anorexic be allowed to starve under the guidance of a dr?
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Should drs. be cutting into the breasts of healthy women and stuffing them with balloons?
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Should drs. get paid for **** like what some witch dr. did to Michael Jacksons face?
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Drs. should be held accountable for what they do.
    They are.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #142
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Hey Ikari...did you forget something? This is a debate sight...not congress. No one is legislating what people can do with their genitalia here...just offering our thoughts on the situation. Can you do that too? Because honestly, this whole line of attack that offering an opinion on the topic is somehow making me a genitalia nazi is getting old already.
    Hey jallman, I'm debating. Did you forget that on a debate site people may have other opinions counter to your own? I did offer my opinion; it's stupid to give a **** about what other people choose to do to themselves especially if they do it in a manner to feel more comfortable with who they are. Here's a continuation of my opinion; it ain't none of your business what people choose to do in this case, their property their rules. Here is more of my opinion; social engineering prudes need to butt out! People should be free to do as they like so long as they ain't hurting anyone else in the process.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #143
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    You know nothing of what you spew. Again, you prove how absolutely dense you are.
    So you didn't post this post?
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-par...post1057766085

    Or have I misunderstood it?

    Josh and I are already married. It happened on September 10th at 2:30PM at the Redwood City courthouse.

    He is still planning a large gathering on October 9th of 2009 for family, friends, and associates at the Meritage in Napa Valley where we will have a ceremony for them and a huge dinner/party before we go on our "honeymoon" in the Mediterrenean two days later.

    I have not renounced the Church.
    jallman: "It's all good. At least you have a thick skin and can take being poked fun back at without crying. "

  4. #144
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So is eating McDonald's everyday...we gonna go bitch about that? When the hell did that become illegal; why the hell should it be illegal? Who are you to say what's irrational and pointless. Maybe people find a lot of relief in it, maybe they find themselves in a happier place more able to deal with everyday life because of it. Who the hell are you to say no? Tom Cruise or something over there telling us what we should and shouldn't do like you know the minds of others. Keep your nose out of other people's business...if someone wants to be self-destructive; let them. Their body, their choice, their business.
    That's all very nice and libertarian.

    My concerns stem from the belief that all forms of dysphoria have a mental component. Surgical alterations are usually permanent while a variety of mental illnesses are not. A guy who absolutely feels that he mentally cannot live with his penis may not in fact be as hysterical if given time and treatment of the deeper mental issues. What the man wants is to be made a woman. This is not doable so ****ing around with his genitals with a knife is insane. Mentally ill people shouldn't be exploited. Depressed people especially shouldn't be exploited. Those are my only concerns.

  5. #145
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So is eating McDonald's everyday...we gonna go bitch about that? When the hell did that become illegal; why the hell should it be illegal?
    It shouldn't. It doesn't require medical intervention to reverse the effects or to even bring about that effect in the first place.

    Who are you to say what's irrational and pointless.
    A person on a debate site offering opinions as we are here to do. If you don't like opinions, don't have one.

    Maybe people find a lot of relief in it, maybe they find themselves in a happier place more able to deal with everyday life because of it.
    That remains to be seen. The MAYBE is why we're having this discussion to start with, no?

    Who the hell are you to say no?
    A person on a debate site offering an opinion as we are expected to do. If you don't like opinions, don't have one.

    Tom Cruise or something over there telling us what we should and shouldn't do like you know the minds of others. Keep your nose out of other people's business...if someone wants to be self-destructive; let them. Their body, their choice, their business.
    Yes well...that fairly puts an end to all debate. Thank you, Ikari. You have just made peace throughout the entire DP site with your insightful analysis of why debate just should not occur.

  6. #146
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    That's my point. There's no proof that it does improve the emotional state or well being of the patient.
    The individual seems to think so though. And if they're happy, then who am I to say that what they did is wrong. So long as they ain't hurting no one else, I don't see what the problem is.

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    In fact studies show plastic surgery doesn't do that, not by far. People who undergo drastic plastic surgery are statistically more unhappy than the general population and the unhappiness statistically doesn't change post-op because when the body was pathologically healthy the unhappiness was mental thus not amendable to correction with a knife.
    How is that my fault or problem? People can choose to go under the knife. Some like it, some hate it; it was a personal choice with consequences they have to live with. Live and let live, that's what I say. Do what you want so long as you don't infringe upon the rights of others in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    If these drs are not statistically improving the well being of their patients then what are they doing?
    Making money hand over fist

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    In my mind they're exploiting mental illness for profit. Selling illusions for dollars without ever having the intention of resolving the real problem - the mental dysphoria. Preying on the weak. These drs. in all likelihood are causing more harm than good.
    I think a lot of people do that. The whole of scientology I would claim does that. But it doesn't mean that I think we should go take down Scientology....well I mean that I think it should really go away, but there isn't any rightful means by which I can accomplish that. So I'll continue letting people be fools if they want to be fools and move on.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #147
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    First, I'm not assuming the person is confused. Confused wouldn't be my word choice. As with any dysphoria I believe they're ultimately unhappy. They are mentally not content with their body. When the body is pathologically healthy the malcontent, the way I see it, has to be a product of the mind.
    Yes, we agree. Malcontent does come from the mind, as does with any type of perception.

    A dr. -no matter how good or expensive- cannot turn a man into a woman. This is the reality. To charge them, exploit them, and surgically alter them is a shoddy attempt at healing the dysphoria. When all is said and done they will still be a man, a surgically altered man, but still a man. All this at the expense of a healthy body. The once healthy body, unhealthy mind now becomes an unhealthy mind and unhealthy body.
    Why does the mind stay unhealthy even after the surgery? Are you saying that even after the solution, the delusion still exists? Well, sure it does exist, but that doesn't mean it's still unhealthy.

    A man who has schizophrenia will still have schizophrenia even though he learned how to deal with it, whether by drugs or by behavioral modification. But after having dealt with the problem, I would say that is a step toward being more healthy at the very least.

    Given that the solution for GID isn't always surgery, the step toward addressing the problem is always healthy.

    If you want to argue that it's healthy for a man to remove his healthy penis I'll just agree to disagree. The removal of a penis is not a benign alteration. It's drastic. It's also pointless in that at first the dr. is dealing with a man who wants to be a woman. Post surgery the dr. is dealing with a penis-less man who wants to be a woman. No healing of any kind occurred and the procedure is irreversible! At this point the dr. should be ashamed of themselves, my opinion of course.
    I would argue against your claim that no healing would occur after the surgery. As it has been shown earlier in this thread that many Transsexuals become much more healthier and their moods and behaviors improve.

    Meanwhile gender roles change constantly. There's no reason a healthy man can't adopt the appearance of a "woman" without self destruction. There's no reason for the knife and the destruction of healthy tissue unless the patient is lead to believe that the illusion will be so real, so good, that others will be fooled. That for all intent and purposes he as a man has become a woman.

    However society has shown time and time again that they don't buy into such illusions. No amount of surgery makes a man a woman and ultimately the illusion fails its intended purpose.
    Yes, but there are two goals here. To appear a woman or a man isn't the only thing that Transsexuals want (public perception). It is also done out of self-satisfaction, so that they can address their feeling and identity of the opposite sex (self-perception).

    The surgery is done for public perception as much as it is done for self-perception. Lest we forget, the objective here was to heal the mind of the afflicted person, the Transsexual. The self. The mind. In this regard, satisfying the public is a secondary goal.

    I think it's far better to encourage the person to take care of their healthy body, be glad that their body is healthy, and go ahead and encourage them to defy gender roles every which way till Sunday without bringing physical harm to the healthy body they do have. Every effort should be made to help them be comfortable within their own skin.
    I'm not 100% sure of what the procedure or protocol is for counseling people with GID. But I am sure that the counselor/clinician will have gone over the pros and cons of the surgery and other solutions, prior to their decision to go under the knife. Or at least that is what should be the ideal.

    Let's say you're right. Let's say it's possible an individual genuinely is "trapped" in the wrong body, the wrong gender. I'll go ahead and accept that premise.

    It doesn't change the argument that they shouldn't do bodily harm to themselves. It doesn't change the FACT that a dr. can't make a man a woman.

    People self harm for a wide variety of reasons. No matter what the underlying cause we normally steer away from allowing them to continue to do that. Gender disorders shouldn't be treated any differently. If you could make a man a woman then that would be different. That would be a "cure." But you can't. So you're just allowing them to self mutilate. We wouldn't allow a "cutter" to keep cutting as long as they did it in a way that never resulted in death. We certainly wouldn't do it and call it a cure. We wouldn't allow drs. to set up shop where they make appts to routinely safely cut cutters in a sterile clean environment and call that a cure for whatever dysphoria they had. The very idea is insane.
    If you've truly accepted my premise, then you shouldn't have arrive to the conclusion of self harm. If we can determine their gender identity, then the solution is to change the body. Since it is no longer the mind that is unfit for the body, that means the body is unfit for the mind.

    Therefore it isn't self harm, it's corrective surgery.

    As a side note, I would advise against using categorically different disorders such as "cutters" (as you referred it) for comparisons. "Cutters" would be in the OCD category (compulsive-compulsive disorder). What we are discussing is identity, thus Gender Identity Disorder.

    An unhealthy mind needs to be surrounded by healthy minds that aim to heal. It's a disservice to offer them up insane "cures" that are self destructive, illusionary, and without purpose.
    But there is a purpose, are you not going to acknowledge that?

    I don't think any psychologists on Earth believe there are "cures" to any type of disorder. What clinical psychologists do is help. They determine the problem with the help of their clients, and they both resolve the problem together. This meets your requirements, correct? The only problem is that you don't seem to think corrective surgery is a solution for GID...
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

  8. #148
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerwind View Post
    So you didn't post this post?
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-par...post1057766085

    Or have I misunderstood it?
    Yes, you have it completely misunderstood. After what you just spewed at me, you little tramp, don't expect that I am going to have any intention of polite discussion with you. **** off.

  9. #149
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    It's loosely defined as any form of gender bending. It could be a woman trying to break into a field of work considered mens work. If you ask my grandpop he thinks long haired guys who wear earrings are transgendered.

    For the purpose of this thread though I think we're talking about folks who are not happy with their male/female biological reality and thus aim to change it or create the illusion that it has changed.

    ..........wierd.

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  10. #150
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Moderator's Warning:
    Transgendered.  Insane or Misunderstood?




    Cool the thread down.


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